Asking people to use preferred pro-nouns is abelist and discriminatory - what affects your ability to comply?

[DJLippy]

I wanted to start a thread because I am really going to struggle to stay within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

I struggle to use preferred pro-noun's with those who I genuinely don't believe are the sex they claim to be. Because I have dyspraxia pro-noun policing creates a barrier for my fluency. I have to stop and think to change the pro-noun. I can go back and edit my post for 'mistakes' to comply but I miss out on pro-nouns (again because of my disability.)

I have spoken to those with autism and they've told me similar things - that they genuinely find it difficult to lie.

I also think that it is difficult for those for whom English is a second language. Un-learning sub-conscious grammar structures is hard enough for English people - I can only imagine how much more difficult it must be for those from other countries.

I think this is a real issue when Mumsnet creates a three strike rule. I have stopped posting since the new rule change because I honestly and truly do not mean to break rules - I can't abide by this code and I don't always have the mental energy to police my sub-conscious like this.

Does anybody else have a reason (other than the fact that they don't agree) that they find it difficult to follow the new language laws? Is it right that social media platforms and public institutions create more barriers for those who are already disadvantaged?

Ok well I guess if MN is so important in your life, for whatever reason,, then you may feel you have to comply with whatever absurd authoritarian lies they ask you to, in order to stay here. And then you'll worry about whether you might not understand and break the rule.

Personally, I've been here 13yrs, and I'm not going to start telling lies for anyone.

Aren't the bans temporary anyway?

Except if you are in that position you don't think you will be given that choice.

That's the point - the anxiety of being banned combined with how trying to make sure you are able to express the things that are affecting you and have impact on your life (and why you are on MN in the first place.

That's where the stress of it is coming from: the pressure of treading a line you don't think you will be able to and even if you do, then you will be harmed in the process of doing so.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread but has anyone mentioned that use of pronouns and inability to use the correct one is a very specific, identified characteristic of autism. It's one of the markers clinicians look out for when diagnosing children with autism.

There a specially designed interventions for children for this one issue because it is such a difficult area. Don't forget autism is a communication disability. My 5 year DS is currently undergoing ABA therapy for this very issue.

I find it shocking that autistic people will be punished and potentially banned because of something which is recognised by the medical profession as part of their disability. I wonder how a ban would hold up in the face of a complaint to the EHRC.

OP I think it would be a good idea if you reported your first post so MNHQ will know to look at the whole thread rather than just any reported for doing wrong. It might even help.

《Holds breath》

OK actually getting angry now after reading all these.
Sorry that this is causing you so much anxiety Red. Just so you know you're posts have been invaluable to me in the trans debate - you hit the Nail. On. Head. Every time you post. It's galling to me that this is effecting so many people.

In a way I don't want to make this a disability issue because I think that correct pro-nouns are challenging for everyone - always walking on egg shells - desperately trying not to cause offence. That's what we've been trained to do. Mumsnet was the one place people spoke freely and finding this place was such a relief! It made me realise that what was happening elsewhere was g a s l i g h t i n g.

I really think @MNHQ should consult some lawyers about this issue and find out how to manage this conflict. You are causing a great amount of distress to many users - through no fault of their own.
Anybody with a law/disability rights background have any advice?

I'd actually forgotten that, Mimpi, but we had quite some months of (yes, autistic) DS saying 'You do it' meaning he'd do it himself, or 'Do we' meaning No he wouldn't (I blame his grandmother for that one - 'Good boys don't do that do we?'), or 'You will get I the drink' meaning 'I'll get it for you'.

I really think you should, OP.

Mumsnet's stated policy is:

* 'Mumsnet will always stand in solidarity with vulnerable or oppressed minorities.* Mumsnet is also committed to freedom of speech.'

I'm sure it's an unintended consequence but this thread makes it clear that they're failing to do either of these things in relation to posters on this thread. The new policies are causing distress and self-imposed silencing for a vulnerable and oppressed minority.

Well, like other NT posters on this thread (self included, I don't doubt) the MNHQ staff probably just don't get it properly. I believe they're generally people who mean well, but I'd guess it's a job requirement to be good with words and fairly confident. They need to read this thread and try to understand.

There's a saying that the squeaking wheel gets oiled. Well, it's simply not good enough to prioritise the needs of vulnerable minorities who have loud, aggressive activists (and maybe lawyers). They need to protect the vulnerable minorities who don't have that voice, who don't have anyone shouting for them, people who come here for support not attacking the site.

There's a famous quotation (actually a misquotation but never mind)
"A civilization is measured by how it treats its weakest members”

Well, you lot aren't all by any means 'weak' but you're some of the more vulnerable and silenceable MNers and MN will be judged - by some of us - on how you're treated.

Red, your post at 8.37 is perfect (and depressing too :(
for you)

before I expressed my thoughts that I might be autistic I had an assessment. That way, when anyone challenged me about self-identifying - a concept for which I have no brief - I could point the diagnosis provided by a psychologist who specialises in autism

Me too - I'd suspected I was autistic for around a decade, and had made multiple requests for an assessment that were either ridiculed ("there's no way you're autistic") or minimised (" but you seem to be coping - what use would a diagnosis be at your age"). I'm still incredibly angry that I lost so many years of having any understanding of myself denied by uninformed professional gatekeepers. But, because I didn't have an 'official' diagnosis, I never felt able to self-ID as autistic until I was assessed and my suspicions were confirmed by a consultant psychologist via the National Autistic Society's Lorna Wing Centre.

Like many autistic women who've lived their entire lives with their autism & associated difficulties & challenges unrecognised, I have lived through multiple experiences of male predatory behaviour including rape and domestic abuse. As a result of those experiences, I also have mental health diagnoses of PTSD & dissociation.

The combined effect of my disabilities & difficulties means that this debate is incredibly important to me personally - I've needed to access both rape crisis services & domestic abuse services, including fleeing many miles from my former home to stay in a refuge when my kids were still young. Had I been required to share living space with, or receive services from a person of the opposite biological sex, regardless of their personal subjective gender identity, the impact on me could well have been catastrophic, and I'm personally both saddened & angry about MNHQ's failure to consider or respect the experiences of women such as myself in their recent language-policing diktats. I'm done with being nice about this - a woman is an adult human female, nothing more, nothing less. A man can never become a woman, and trying to coerce women such as myself to pretend that they can is an act of abuse.

They need to protect the vulnerable minorities who don't have that voice, who don't have anyone shouting for them, people who come here for support not attacking the site.

It's also worth noting that MN has a much higher number of autistic posters compared to what you'd encounter in real life. Primarily because it is/should be a source of support and social contact which doesn't exist for us in the real world. In my case, beyond DH and my children, I have no social interactions with others outside of MN at all. This is my only 'human contact'. And now I face being excluded here also.

I’ve taught my children that if someone is telling them to lie then that person isn't to be trusted. The whole premise of keeping up a pretence that it is possible to actually become another sex has landed us where we are now, with women and girls being silenced , their rights eroded and their needs and feelings disregarded .

I am not autistic, but I have been on the receiving end of coercive control and violence. I am certainly not alone in that here on Mumsnet, I feel the rules now discriminate strongly against women like me who find any kind of forced control extremely distressing. That is true for NT women and women with ASD. We must hugely outnumber the tiny amount of male trans people who come into Mumsnet.
Who is this site for now ? Where is our support ?

Reported to MN. Let's see what they have to say...

Well...the advertisers seem to be working under the assumption that MumsNet is for us adult female type humans. If that changes, they'd probably want to know about it.

Could I make a polite request that NT posters please desist with telling the ND posters here how easy it is to "just" adapt?

Supermatch, the point of the thread is that it is very hard to REMEMBER to call transgendered males 'she' all the bloody time, given that they are male, and the male pronoun is 'he' by default.

It's also very hard to have any clear discussion about the effect of males in female-only areas and events, if there is an ever-changing list of banned ways of describing 'male'.

Tell you what, SMG, why don't you centre the needs of another group just once? And even if you don't/won't, couldn't you just step away from the keyboard instead of making crass comments that you know perfectly well will add to other people's distress and anxiety?

It's interesting that the distress element is being sidestepped so neatly.

SparticusAutisticus

The lurkers can see, just remember that.