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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Asking people to use preferred pro-nouns is abelist and discriminatory - what affects your ability to comply?

397 replies

DJLippy · 18/06/2018 16:15

I wanted to start a thread because I am really going to struggle to stay within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

I struggle to use preferred pro-noun's with those who I genuinely don't believe are the sex they claim to be. Because I have dyspraxia pro-noun policing creates a barrier for my fluency. I have to stop and think to change the pro-noun. I can go back and edit my post for 'mistakes' to comply but I miss out on pro-nouns (again because of my disability.)

I have spoken to those with autism and they've told me similar things - that they genuinely find it difficult to lie.

I also think that it is difficult for those for whom English is a second language. Un-learning sub-conscious grammar structures is hard enough for English people - I can only imagine how much more difficult it must be for those from other countries.

I think this is a real issue when Mumsnet creates a three strike rule. I have stopped posting since the new rule change because I honestly and truly do not mean to break rules - I can't abide by this code and I don't always have the mental energy to police my sub-conscious like this.

Does anybody else have a reason (other than the fact that they don't agree) that they find it difficult to follow the new language laws? Is it right that social media platforms and public institutions create more barriers for those who are already disadvantaged?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 19/06/2018 08:37

I am really struggling.

Firstly I can not find MN policy. There was a sticky then there was. Then MN started to clarify things but it was all over the place and I haven't been following the conversation in recent weeks. So it ended up like Chinese whispers over what you can say and what you can't. The bottom line is this: any policy needs to be concise, understableable, in a single post that is stickied to the top of this section. Anything else just makes it unworkable and unusable. Particularly from an accessibility point of view.

Not only that but I have two further problems.

Firstly the pressure that this creates to comply is part of the problem. It amplifies anxiety and if you are genuinely struggling to be sensitive, constantly second guessing yourself over whether your last post was ok and feeling like you constantly have to walk on eye shells is harmful.

I point out here that the doublethink involved to comply is difficult. Not only that but telling people black is white repeatedly has and is used to actually torture people.

My other issue is that a lot of trans people seem to think acceptance and understanding is like a switch that can just be flipped. They want to get from a to b without the difficult hard work bit in the middle.

The reality is they spent years working though things in their own heads, yet expect everyone else to go through the process in five minutes flat. You can't. Nor should it be attempted.

That's the point: it's a process that needs to be worked through over time.

People need the time and space to thrash out ideas and thoughts and have sufficient answers to their deepest and darkest fears about it. Without those answers and things being properly addressed, real acceptance will never happen. Indeed you run the risk of merely fueling things and radicalise people who are being forced to accept things without that process. It merely looks like an attempt to hide sinister issues or negative effects on women.

On top of this, you have the dynamic of people (users) trying desparately to please those who have power over them (MNHQ) but the goal posts keep shifting but people never really know where , and what people do is never deemed good enough. That's a psychologically harmful set up in its own right.

It's not really a huge surprise that people who have communication problems in the first place are going to have real problems with the way this is being handled. The mindfuckery involved is harmful and is being exacerbated by the way it's being handled. Those most at risk are those who are less able to navigate the minefield of language.

They face being silenced, not because they are transphobic in the slightest but because no one is giving any thought to intent and this need to explore the entire issue properly, in their own language. And yes inevitably there are some groups who are more vulnerable to the new policy than others.

No work is being done to answer concerns. No work is being done to properly address worries, and they are instead belittled and there is a deliberate refusal to engage properly. Instead it's all about just closing the conversation down.

These issues are real to women and don't just go away because someone decides to brush them under the carpet. Their life experience can not be erased no matter how much you try. Attempts to do so are a form of abuse.

Personally I'm at the point where I'm afraid of posting here. AFRAID I don't want to be banned. I don't want to cause offence. I need to work through things in my own time, and headspace and be given the ability to do this. I also can not compromise my own needs if doing so is harmful to me. I don't want to cause myself more harm constantly worrying about the bastards who are trigger happy with the report button.

The comments on this thread about 'just try harder' totally miss the point and the problems on multiple levels. Some people are already trying their hardest.

TerfsUp · 19/06/2018 08:41

That's not inclusive is it?

Good point. I have autism and forcing me to use language in an inaccurate way and to say what I know not to be true causes me distress. That's not inclusive. But, then again, I'm female so my needs come second to men's.

TerfsUp · 19/06/2018 08:42

*The comments on this thread about 'just try harder' totally miss the point and the problems on multiple levels. Some people are already trying their hardest.&

They are also offensive - it sends us the message that we are inferior and therefore have to work harder to be accepted. And if we don't work hard enough, we are penalised.

Theinconstantgardener · 19/06/2018 08:42

I'm also confused as to what I can and cant say. A pinned list would be good as Iv got a memory like a sieve

TerfsUp · 19/06/2018 08:43

I don't see that being autistic necessarily means you don't understand the concept of trans gender identity and are incapable of using the right pronouns.

That is because you are NT and not autistic. You have no idea what it's like to be autistic and you never will.

TerfsUp · 19/06/2018 08:46

Identifying as autistic has become a thing.

True. Which is why before I expressed my thoughts that I might be autistic I had an assessment. That way, when anyone challenged me about self-identifying - a concept for which I have no brief - I could point the diagnosis provided by a psychologist who specialises in autism.

Grauniad · 19/06/2018 08:47

This is on behalf of a friend, not my own problem, but: he had a severe stroke a couple of years ago. His child fairly recently announced that they are trans and changed name and pronouns outside the family.

He literally cannot manage this: he had no speech at all for a while afterwards, and it’s touch and go whether he comes up with even the right ‘dead name’ rather than the cat’s name or a piece of furniture.

His child seems pretty understanding, fortunately.

That’s an extreme case but it’s easy to see how a lesser difficulty can still mean you default to the person’s sex rather than inner gender.

LangCleg · 19/06/2018 08:51

This thread makes me so sad. I hate to see psychological damage being done to women. Still worse to see an important website for women enabling it.

Extreme transactivism is an absolute embodiment of the Duluth wheel's representation of male pattern abusive behaviour. There is nothing gender non-conforming about it. It's a complete replication of gender power relations.

Women on this thread - know this. It's not you. It's not your fault. You don't lack capacity. You recognise this accurately. This distress has been imposed on you.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 19/06/2018 08:51

Some autistic people can drive cars. If I tell someone that autism affects me in such a way that I can't drive a car, I am believed.

What is it about this issue which means my heartfelt attempts to explain how I'm affected by neurological difference are dismissed and belittled?

Why would women posting in the feminist section care about one protected characteristic more than another?

What is the dynamic here? Who or what is being defended at the expense of posters like us?

Dragoncake · 19/06/2018 08:59

Some women here are distressed enough to offer MNHQ evidence of their diagnoses. In order to continue to access a forum that they are already fully entitled to use. I find this very generous and moving.

This sits in direct contrast to the entitlement of some male bodied people who demand access to female spaces without a GRC. Spaces which male bodied people should not automatically be entitled to use. In my view.

ArcheryAnnie · 19/06/2018 09:07

The reason women are being forced into this - disclosing diagnoses that they shouldn't have to - is part of the "nothing you do will ever be enough to protect you from an accusation of transphobia" narrative.

I'm an active member of a large anonmeme which focusses on popular culture, and have been for years. I habitually use the pronoun "they" on this anonmeme, as it's an anonmeme - nobody knows what sex anyone is! There was a discussion of Gary Dean Marie, that prolific sex offender (60+ offenses) whose thing was to break into teenage girls' bedrooms and wank into their underwear, and who was also being presented in a petition doing the social justice rounds as a vulnerable transwoman who should immediately be moved to a women's prison. My contribution to the debate was immediately jumped on as transphobic, because I'd described Dean Marie as "they", not "she", which clearly Revealed My Evil Intent To Misgender. Now, if I'd been thinking at all, I'd have called Dean Marie "he" on that anonmeme, not "they", and at least misgendered with intent, but I typed "they" out of automatic habit. But "they", typed on automatic, was enough to stop people considering the crimes of a prolific sex offender who targets teenage girls, and start considering my crimes as someone who uses "they" for a transwoman.

TerfsUp · 19/06/2018 09:08

I would be happy to provide a copy of my diagnosis, too.

TerfsUp · 19/06/2018 09:09

Who or what is being defended at the expense of posters like us?

You know that answer to that, don't you?

BabyItsAWildWorld · 19/06/2018 09:15

Why is everyone so AFRAID of being banned?

Why aren't we going "Fuck this, we're going to continue speaking truth ban me if you want?"

Mass bannings would highlight the absurdity, raise the anger, get noticed, the banned posters could stay in touch with those still active on MNHQ through the new forum, whilst waiting for the ban to be lifted.
Then straight back in, over the top, whistles blowing, speaking truth.

Let's collect all the evidence of what facts women state which get them banned from MN. Let's get them out there in the press etc.

What's with all the hand wringing?

Fuck this, we won't be silenced, we won't lie.

BabyItsAWildWorld · 19/06/2018 09:21

And I think this I'm dyspraxic/autistic/dyslexic so can't lie/follow rules I can't understand is unnecessary, and probably damaging.

We don't need to declare disabilities, to say I will not, can not, go along with authoritarian control of language which is absurd and dangerous, it's enough to say I
won't because I'm a rational women.

That's enough.

Dragoncake · 19/06/2018 09:22

This thread has been a huge eye opener for me. Thanks OP.

When the new guidelines came out, my immediate reaction was 'MN are having a hard time. I can suck this up in the interests of continued discussion'.

I'm ashamed to say that I didn't think further than this. It never crossed my mind that some people would be excluded from the discussion if standard language is policed.

I suspect that MNHQ didn't foresee this either. It needs looking at again IMO.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 19/06/2018 09:22

Yes I have a fair idea, TU.

Baby, I'm not sure whether you have experience of a condition that differentiates you from people who are neurotypical. I posted on this thread because I do.

I think that if MNers aren't bothered about being banned, that's great. I personally am. I get a lot out of being on MN specifically because of my autism. I started using the site in 2004 but lurked before that. It helps me work out what's acceptable and what's not in situations where I wouldn't otherwise be sure.
MN has helped me when I've felt very isolated. I've made genuine RL friends through posting on here.

I also feel I help other women by posting on here. I watch out for unanswered threads I can bump etc. I sometimes have knowledge of specific things that can help. I don't see why I should be banned if it can be helped.

Also, with my autism, I do get distressed at the idea of not knowing 'the rules' of human interaction. I can see how this may look like handwringing but again, I'm not an expert on how to communicate, so might be doing this in a clumsy way.

Cascade220 · 19/06/2018 09:25

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Cascade220 · 19/06/2018 09:28

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BingTheButterflySlayer · 19/06/2018 09:39

Grauniad I worry desperately about my younger daughter who just can't "do" pronouns at the moment. We do constant work on he/she him/her to try to reinforce it and it's slowly slowly slowly getting there... and then she's bound to come up against someone who goes ballistic when she gets it biologically "right" but "wrong" in their eyes.

And trying to fucking Google information on gender pronoun confusion these days in a developmental/SEN context is fucking impossible!

I'm actually loving this thread just for finding other people who struggle so I can put it into DD2's bumper list of quirks/SEN issues in some form of context to be honest!

LangCleg · 19/06/2018 09:40

so might be doing this in a clumsy way

You are not. You are doing it in an eloquent way and I thank you for it.

JoyTheUnicorn · 19/06/2018 09:40

Why is everyone so AFRAID of being banned?

MN has been a go-to place for 9 years.
The place I found support through ds2's autism assessment, ds3's birth and feeding issues, my own stuff.
It's been like an old friend, somewhere to turn when I'm not able to turn to someone in real life.
It's the place where I've found some really good friends.
I would hate to lose that.

However, MNHQ have been clear over the years that non-disabled posters are more important to them, and are now making it patently clear that men are more important than the users the website was created for!

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2018 09:45

Why am I afraid of being banned?

Because I find breaking rules something which is difficult to do full stop. I get very upset at it. I don't know why. I just do.
Because MN is such a lifeline to me, and I have very few friends.
Because I have been on it a very long time, and MN has a reach that other sites don't. I have used to increase awareness of other issues and give support.
Precisely because I have invested emotionally in it, and I don't see why people who have should be driven off under any circumstances in favour of people who have logged into the site once or twice simply to shit stir.
Because I suffer from crippling anxiety and don't have the capacity to deal with that too.
Because I have already lost my family, and feel like my world is shrinking slowly because of this issue. I have this sense of slowly slipping away and disappearing.

I always thought that MN was created because it was recognised that the internet was so male dominated and women had no place to talk freely, particularly about issues that impacted them in a different way to the accepted narrative. That's what gave it influence and power and made it ultimately so popular. Its almost like MN forgot that.

Cascade220 · 19/06/2018 09:47

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cascade220 · 19/06/2018 09:52

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.