Asking people to use preferred pro-nouns is abelist and discriminatory - what affects your ability to comply?

[DJLippy]

I wanted to start a thread because I am really going to struggle to stay within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

I struggle to use preferred pro-noun's with those who I genuinely don't believe are the sex they claim to be. Because I have dyspraxia pro-noun policing creates a barrier for my fluency. I have to stop and think to change the pro-noun. I can go back and edit my post for 'mistakes' to comply but I miss out on pro-nouns (again because of my disability.)

I have spoken to those with autism and they've told me similar things - that they genuinely find it difficult to lie.

I also think that it is difficult for those for whom English is a second language. Un-learning sub-conscious grammar structures is hard enough for English people - I can only imagine how much more difficult it must be for those from other countries.

I think this is a real issue when Mumsnet creates a three strike rule. I have stopped posting since the new rule change because I honestly and truly do not mean to break rules - I can't abide by this code and I don't always have the mental energy to police my sub-conscious like this.

Does anybody else have a reason (other than the fact that they don't agree) that they find it difficult to follow the new language laws? Is it right that social media platforms and public institutions create more barriers for those who are already disadvantaged?

Hmm I’m wondering if there is a way in our profiles to inform MN we are disabled?
Not that we should have to.

Hmmm... what possible difficulties could there be with self identifying into a protected characteristic?

I do think Mumsnet should provide some clarification here. Clearly this is causing service users detriment; they are demonstrably self excluding and have set out the distress this policy is causing them

What exactly do you want MNHQ to do ? It's not as if they banning posters for one infringement - it's a three strike rule presumably to allow for inadvertent postings and genuine mistakes.

MNHQ don't always get it right but as they're said, it's about the spirit of the post as much as the actual words used. Is there reason to think that they won't stick to this or take into account any explanation of genuine error ? Of course there will be a bedding in process and mistakes will be made but they're not generally officious twats or TRA central.

It would maybe be helpful if there were some positive suggestions about what MNHQ could implement on behalf of the posters on here who have identified their difficulties but that still allow MNHQ to enforce their policy

The thing is, the meaning of pronouns isn't changing - it's not like all males are now she and vv. The rule of what is appropriate varies by each person so we are not just learning one new rule and that's it.

Exactly. "He" refers to human males, but trans activists want "he" to refer to anyone who feels like a man. And we can't know whether someone feels like a man, can we? Material biological reality, on the other hand, is easily gauged.

If, like me, you have chronic major depression that affects your memory, having to remember IRL that some of the male-bodied people like to be called "she" and may complain to your boss if you slip up, makes my job harder.

This differs from being asked to use "chairperson" instead of "chairman" because, with desexing of job titles, you only have to make that change once and the pattern (replace "man" with "person") is consistent.

Regarding the weight analogy someone made upthread, it's not like reminding someone that it's considered socially unacceptable or rude to refer to someone else as 'the fat woman' and choosing another descriptive characteristic is better. It's closer to saying that because the fat woman is unhappy with her weight, everyone must lie and call her 'the thin woman'.

Worse, in fact, because fat/thin is a continuum and there's an element of subjective judgement, unlike with male/female.

Moussemoose, the techniques you're describing to force autistic people to mask are outdated and they cause untold distress.

Please learn why they're not appropriate.
blog.theautismsite.com/aba-therapy-controversy/
Not sure if this is the best link but anything to do with ABA is v triggering for me.

This is not a question of 'just learning' to do better. It's not like learning to spell or tie your laces.It's asking us to go against our beliefs in a way which distresses us, and also reminds us of barriers that don't exist for neurotypical people.

I think it's a good thing that I don't care to lie. I think it's a good thing that I have integrity. I think my distress is as valid as the distress of someone with a transgender identity. I deserve to be protected as much as anybody else in this world.

As a lesbian, it makes no sense for me to say that a male-bodied person is a woman. I am not attracted to male-bodied people. That is valid, as much as someone else's transgender identity is valid. I matter as much as anyone else. It's taken me a long time to come to that realisation, and now that I have, I'm sticking with it.

ABA did a lot of the damage that led me to feel 'less than'. I'm not putting up with it now.

*It'sing = It's asking

I would happily send MNHQ copies of my medical correspondence if they're able to keep it confidential.

This differs from being asked to use "chairperson" instead of "chairman"

And also, if I fall off a boat and someone sees me in the water and shouts "man overboard", I'm not going to throw a hissy fit because they misgendered me, I'm going to be glad they raised the alarm. Compare and contrast the person who told their husband they would rather die of cancer than be misgendered.

It's not really, allowances are made for genuine mistakes and the like. I guess the question for dyslexia is, do you ever correctly gender someone because of dyslexia?

Honestly I'm not sure how dyslexia works but as far as I'm aware people don't condemn you for something outside your control.

Hi SMG

Everyone has a different experience of their disability don’t they. This is not a one size fits all approach at all. And you simply cannot say that one person’s experience of their disability means that everyone else has the same experience: particularly not with autism. My understanding is that there are massive differences in the sexes experiences of autism which would also overlay the individual experience. You can’t extrapolate from one person’s ability to ‘comply’ to be able to pass judgment on another’s inability.

That wouldn’t be very inclusive would it?

as far as I'm aware people don't condemn you for something outside your control.

It would be nice if that was the case but sadly that has not been my experience. Also, most people tend to not like to disclose such information. We just try and use coping/adaption strategies. My issue is that pro-noun policies create another barrier. That's not inclusive is it?

Moussemoose, the techniques you're describing to force autistic people to mask are outdated and they cause untold distress...

...This is not a question of 'just learning' to do better. It's not like learning to spell or tie your laces.It's asking us to go against our beliefs in a way which distresses us, and also reminds us of barriers that don't exist for neurotypical people.

I think it's a good thing that I don't care to lie. I think it's a good thing that I have integrity. I think my distress is as valid as the distress of someone with a transgender identity. I deserve to be protected as much as anybody else in this world.

So much this, @SuperLoudPoppingAction

I was finally diagnosed with autism only recently, having spent a life-time trying to mask & camouflage as NT - in other words, being required to act as if I'm not autistic. The toll it took on my mental health was catastrophic at times, and I find it genuinely disturbing that someone who claims to work with autistic kids is posting it on here as a recommended strategy.

One of my autistic traits is my love for precise language, finding exactly the right words to capture what I'm trying to communicate. The cognitive dissonance I experience when required to comply with coerced speech that I do not believe to be either accurate or truthful is intense and overwhelming. I am no more able to comply with it than I was able to comply with Catholic doctrines such as transubstantiation forced upon me throughout my convent school education - although thinking about it, even the Catholic enforcers had more respect for biology than to try to force me to accept that men can be women and women can be men

I don't see that being autistic necessarily means you don't understand the concept of trans gender identity and are incapable of using the right pronouns.

I'm not even diagnosed autistic (although my mum has voiced her suspicions), yet the cognitive dissonance between my eyes telling me that someone is male and their insistence on being called female is distinctly uncomfortable. It adds a layer of friction to already impaired (by depression) cognitive functions. So I can accept that some people put their feelings over science and want me to humour them, but they are making my life harder by doing so.

I consistently forget some words ("woodlouse" is one, I keep telling my mum about the "little armoured creatures" in my garden), can intermittently forget any word without warning (the drill becomes "the hole-making thing"), and routinely mix up related words (left and right, a saucepan becomes a frying pan and vice versa, the cat's wormer and fleacide get confused as do shampoo and conditioner), and the more stress I am under, the worse that is. I routinely forget names, so how am I meant to remember genders when my eyes tell me that "that person who I spoke to last week who wants X doing and whose name I'm going to have to look up in the issue tracker before they reach my desk" is male?

I only manage to do my job because the systems analysis aspects can be done visually with diagrams, and coding isn't time constrained and I have access to a language reference[0], plus most development tools have an autocomplete facility and I run my code through a syntax checker[1] before I ask the computer to try to run automated tests[2] against it.

[0] "The conditional that lets me have lots of options, is it called 'case' or 'switch'?" is answered in the language reference.
[1] This is generally good practice anyway.
[2] So is this.

my love for precise language, finding exactly the right words to capture what I'm trying to communicate.

I do this, I spend ages on my documentation trying to make sure it's totally clear. Code is easier, the computers have a uniform parser. Documenting is easily the hardest part of my job because humans don't interpret words consistently.

Ha yes to forgetting words. I pull a particular face when my mind goes blank and DH sighs and says "what now". In fact, quite often here I will explain the word I mean cause it's completely gone from my head.

And that's without mentioning the times when I think of a word and need to double check it in the dictionary to make sure I am using the correct word/in the correct context. I have serious issues with the idea of saying anything that is not correct - comes from a lifetime of trouble from saying the wrong thing

Going to have a proper read of the thread, however wanted to raise my hand as another one who has cognitive processing speed and rigid truth issues - I struggle with pronouns and names, and I’m going to semi regularly balls it up if I have to use language that conflicts with the reality that I perceive.

Happy to provide evidence of my autism diagnosis if needed (although iirc a diagnosis isn’t necessary for an adjustment to be made - it’s to do with how you are affected by the symptoms, not whether the cause is known)

Oh yes I could provide evidence if it was required - and HQ already know my details from product testing, so they'd know it was genuine.

I'm physically disabled with a diagnosis of PTSD. All my medical notes (for example, for smear tests) say that I must be seen by female staff - not at my request. That was put into place by medical staff on my behalf a result of what I've been through.
The attack I survived is so extreme and unusual it would be triggering for other survivors and and outing for me. So I don't talk about it.

It is not a question of belief and we do not have to unlearn anything. Male violence is still a threat to women, and as a consequence people who are male bodied has no business being in women's spaces.
Forcing obedience that goes against reality is just another form of abuse.

My beliefs prevent me from complying. I was under the impression that my beliefs were also protected by the 2010 equality act?

It does somehow smack of hierarchy - male at the top of the pyramid.

Weird, innit