Asking people to use preferred pro-nouns is abelist and discriminatory - what affects your ability to comply?

[DJLippy]

I wanted to start a thread because I am really going to struggle to stay within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

I struggle to use preferred pro-noun's with those who I genuinely don't believe are the sex they claim to be. Because I have dyspraxia pro-noun policing creates a barrier for my fluency. I have to stop and think to change the pro-noun. I can go back and edit my post for 'mistakes' to comply but I miss out on pro-nouns (again because of my disability.)

I have spoken to those with autism and they've told me similar things - that they genuinely find it difficult to lie.

I also think that it is difficult for those for whom English is a second language. Un-learning sub-conscious grammar structures is hard enough for English people - I can only imagine how much more difficult it must be for those from other countries.

I think this is a real issue when Mumsnet creates a three strike rule. I have stopped posting since the new rule change because I honestly and truly do not mean to break rules - I can't abide by this code and I don't always have the mental energy to police my sub-conscious like this.

Does anybody else have a reason (other than the fact that they don't agree) that they find it difficult to follow the new language laws? Is it right that social media platforms and public institutions create more barriers for those who are already disadvantaged?

Circle, if you're the disabled person standing up to the ableist poster I don't think it's many.
After all, when it comes to inconvenient things like disability, we're here to educate rather than, you know, be a valued part of the MN community.

I just refuse to say things that are untrue - particularly under threat of violence or emotional blackmail but compelled speech is what abusers do

I can see how autistic people would really struggle with this cognitive dissonance and would find it distressing

It's a clear indication that on MN only a certain protected characteristic in the EA is worth protecting

Well, have you posted in site stuff? Maybe they can assist.

I'm not sure the OP or many of the disabled contributors to this thread would feel confident to do that. They're worried about expressing themselves 'wrongly'. But I think they've made some very clear points, and that MNHQ should be asked to comment on the concerns raised on this thread. I don't feel I have the right to report the thread and ask for that, but will if that would be welcomed.

I also wonder how this it affect those with English as a second language?

Wow.

What a fantastic post Mousse. It sets out your position clearly.

I do love it when posters show so obviously what they are like. It makes life much easier.

Oh yes.

However, when you start to use learning difficulties as a reason for not using them you might end up backing yourself into a corner.

Christ on a bike. By the way the definition of women and men isn't sifting sands and has remained stable for many years until very recently.

My grandmother had dementia. I could imagine how the conversation would go...

'grandma - here's Dr Smith to see you'
'nooooo I don't think so, I always see a wan doctor'
'no, this is a woman'
'Eeeee no, that's a lad!
'Her name is Philys'
'Eeeee hinny, looks like you need the doctor not me! Now haddaqay and loss yo-sel'

When I am working with autistic young people and they make a mistake with language should I say - "well they are autistic nothing I can do" or should I talk to the person and say "that language might make some people feel sad is there another way to express that?" And then discuss different language options and word choices.

When ESOL students are unwittingly rude should I say "that's ok because English isn't your first language" or do I talk to them about the words they used and they way they expressed it. Then come up with an alternative form of words that would be regarded as polite.

We are constantly helping people with language issue develop their skills to navigate society. I would never say you have issue X therefore there is no point helping you to adapt, change and develop your skills.

These young people find it very difficult but we work hard to help them to use language in a way that will help them gain employment.

Yes, do report the post and have MNHQ comment. That's probably the best thing here, for the sake of clarity if nothing else.

Even if you intend to use the right pronouns, without an edit facility on mumsnet you could slip up. I'm normally very careful with spelling, but I just reread a post I made earlier today and there is a spelling error. It would be very easy when typing fast, and maybe not checking carefully, to type 'he' instead of 'she'.

When I am working with autistic young people and they make a mistake with language should I say - "well they are autistic nothing I can do" or should I talk to the person and say "that language might make some people feel sad is there another way to express that?" And then discuss different language options and word choices.

So how would you explain to a person with autism that they are expected to lie in order to spare feelings? Many autistic people would find this highly distressing.

What about my memory issues? With small linguistic changes my brain, thanks to a recently acquired disability that I don’t wish to disclose here, will struggle to process them and I trip over names. How do you teach me otherwise?

But you are women and disabled - your rights have no place in the woke politics of the future !

Won’t centre men in everything you do ? Off to Gulag all of you.

When ESOL students are unwittingly rude should I say "that's ok because English isn't your first language" or do I talk to them about the words they used and they way they expressed it. Then come up with an alternative form of words that would be regarded as polite.

I am able to do both of these things with ESL students.
I have no idea why you think you can only do one or the other.

Nor do I understand why you are berating adult women on this thread who are trying to talk about the difficulties they are trying to manage.

Moussemoose respectfully i disagree. You are expecting a level of cognitive dissonance that is really difficult for other people.

Mousse, the fact that we're posting here and not shows that we are trying, otherwise we would have been banned three posts into the new rules.

There should still be some recognition of how difficult this is. Which adjustment of the two here is more reasonable ?:

1. compel everyone on a website to lie because a small group are delusional (medical definition here, not an insult)
2. let everyone on a website tell the truth - still within Talk Guidelines, no attacks - because to follow the wishes of the small group would negatively affect more people

Hmm.. tough one.

We explain about lying to young people all the time. As I'm sure you know many autistic people say what they see "that fat woman"etc. That is the truth but it might make her feel bad could we describe her another way "the woman in the red jumper".

We talk about a whole variety of issues that make some people happy and sad and the words they are best using.

Religion / belief is a protected characteristic - I am a Quaker, speaking the truth is central to my religious belief. Used to drive the dc mad as I would never 'fib' to get them off the hook with school. Where does that leave me if I am compelled to call men "she"?

I will try to be strategic in my use of language and avoid pronouns, I will not tell a lie, so this makes it very hard for me to speak the truth.

I rarely post but I can’t believe i’m reading some of the things here.

To the poster who is telling people with autism that they should try harder, you are telling them to talk in a way that, for them, is lying. You are asking them to say things that, fundamentally, they do not believe. It would be like me trying to teach my autistic cousin to tell the world that she believes in a particular religion, just to keep people of that religion happy. It would be impossible.

Sorry I came on to post about how all these new ‘woke’ policies are discriminating against disabled people and got annoyed at the rubbish Mousse was spouting. Off to calm down for a bit