Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA response to Mumsnet new pro trans guidelines

343 replies

Southfields · 15/06/2018 10:27

As many on here predicted, they are STILL not satisfied. They believe the new guidelines from Justine are transphobic.

So, MN feminists don't like the new guidelines and nor do the TRA.

Where do we go from here?

By transwoman Natasha Kennedy:

Wednesday, 13 June 2018

False equivalence on stilts: Mumsnet's new censorship.

Today Mumsnet have come out with some badly transphobic guidelines which can only be regarded ill-considered at the most generous, profoundly transphobic at worst. They have said they are going to ban transphobia, terms like "TIM" ("Trans-identified male") and the like, although transphobes on Mumsnet are apparently already trying to find ways of producing new abusive and transphobic terms in order to get round this. How many hundreds of mods Mumsnet are going to employ to monitor this is unclear.

However for false equivalence they have decided ban the term "cis-". This is not only ridiculous, it is profoundly transphobic and reflects the institutional transphobia endemic at Mumsnet. "Cis-" as a prefix, they claim is offensive to "feminists", swallowing the rhetoric that "cis-" is somehow a form of abuse (in fact it is only a form of abuse if you are a transphobic bigot). Mumsnet are exposing their bias here and it isn't pretty.

The prefix "cis-" was first used in relation to gender by Dr Ernst Burchard, a cisgender doctor - and one of the earliest campaigners for gay rights - in "Lexikon des Gesamten Sexuallebens" published in German in 1914 and the term "cisgender" was first used by a cis male academic called Sigusch in 1998. It was created in order to provide a counterbalance to "trans-" so that people didn't have to say "non-trans" or "normal" when referring to someone who is cisgender. "Cis-" is effectively like the prefix "hetero-" in heterosexual. We don't talk about people who are not gay men or lesbians as "normal" people, so why should be have to do just that for trans people on Mumsnet?

In effect Mumsnet have censored trans people from using their discussion boards because we can no longer name people who are cisgender except in a way that Others us, pathologizes us or marks us out as somehow "abnormal" or not valid. In effect this is an Orwellian kind of censorship at a lexicon level (like "doubleplusgood") from a media platform that has complained noisily about Orwellian "censorship" when trans people called them out on the abuse we have been receiving on Mumsnet.

So it doesn't just reveal Mumsnet's institutional transphobia but their profound hypocrisy also. They cried foul to that other transphobic media platform, The Times, about being held to account for the transphobia in their forums yet have now banned some elements of the very behaviour they said trans people were threatening "censorship" by complaining about. In other words by their own standards of a few weeks ago they now are "censoring" themselves. This is not merely hypocritical, it is pathetic.

They are effectively excluding discussion by trans people and our allies by denying us legitimate terminology; banning a term that is, by the way, in the Oxford English Dictionary. Without being able to use a term like "cisgender" they are effectively making it impossible for trans people to engage in any meaningful debate in important areas. Their attempt to appear even-handed has ended up being oppressive and effectively taking the side of the oppressor. False equivalence is the name of the game, something trans people are very familiar with in the media, particularly broadcast media. And something the CEO of Mumsnet should be very familiar with since her partner is a senior commissioning editor in Channel 4, which recently produced an abusive and demeaning "debate" about my right to exist.

Mumsnet have got it badly wrong, they have demonstrated that

they are institutionally transphobic and in Desmond Tutu's terms are not even taking the side of the oppressor by being neutral, they are taking the side of the oppressor, period. Their motivation for this...? The only conclusion I can come up with is that they want to maintain their abusive transphobic user-base while avoiding complaints of abuse to advertisers; screenshots of transphobic abuse next to adverts make advertisers nervous. It is worth noting that trans people have been complaining about this kind of transphobic abuse on their site for literally years and they have arrogantly ignored us and brushed us off.

But the implications of Mumsnet's censorship go much further into dangerous territory...

As an academic the last place I would ever want go to discuss my work is of course Mumsnet, but now even if I wanted to I would be unable to since my most recent peer-reviewed publications, and some soon to come not only use terms with the prefix "cis-" ("Cultural cisgenderism" and "Cis-mythologization") throughout but they use them in the title. In effect my research is now banned from Mumsnet. No great loss from my point of view but should we should regard this as the modern equivalent of book-burning?

When the Nazis started to burn

books in Berlin University in 1933, among the first into the flames were those of Magnus Hirschfeld, a researcher into trans people. The comparison is too obvious not to make. Indeed I am not the only academic some of whose work it is now prohibited to discuss on Mumsnet; Gavi Ansara's and Peter Hegarty's award-winning research publication "Cisgenderism in psychology: pathologising and misgendering children from 1999 to 2008" (which originally coined the term "cisgenderism") is also banned under Mumsnet's new regime as are works by both transgender and cisgender academics including; Dr Ruth Pearce, Prof Dean Spade, Dr Julia Serano, Prof Rogers Brubaker, Prof Susan Stryker, Dr Jemma Tosh, Dr Diane Ehrensaft, Asst Prof Z Nicolazzo, Asst Prof Tobias Raun, Prof Sara Ahmed, Dr Meg-John Barker, CN Lester... I could go on and on...

To go from complaining to mainstream media about "censorship" to implementing a thoroughly Orwellian censorship regime of its own is quite a feat of hypocrisy even by Mumsnet's own pitiful standards, and something trans people are used to as pretty much the default setting of transphobes. However banning a term that is the equivalent of "heterosexual-" is not only bizarre but profoundly oppressive, the fact that it prevents the discussion of work by a wide range of academics is, in practical terms no great loss, Mumsnet is really just a cesspit of hate and ignorance. The symbolism of it however is very significant indeed.

uncommon-scents.blogspot.com/2018/06/false-equivalence-on-stilts-mumsnets.html

OP posts:
Picassospaintbrush · 15/06/2018 12:19

We should be angry, we need to be angry to push back on this demonstrably sexist, colonising ideology.

I agree about telling lies.

The EA2010 has gender reassignment as a protected characteristic, certificated or not certificated. I am happy using that protected characteristic if needed. It still exists, it's still a legal definition.

Pronouns, easily avoided. People here rarely tell you want they want to use and if I'm writing about a known person using their name is fine.

Gretol · 15/06/2018 12:21

When the Nazis started to burn books in Berlin University in 1933, among the first into the flames were those of Magnus Hirschfeld, a researcher into trans people

Oh give it a rest. Honestly.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/06/2018 12:29

Snappity How would that work?

You said If it is then surely trans woman or trans man are equally offensive (and I hope transwoman and transman without the space are a breach of the new guidelines) and just woman or man should be used. I agree with Natasha - there has to be symmetry on this.

So, given that we nasty RadFems want an open debate about how trans individuals can get what they need without trampling all over womens rights, how do we have that conversation if we cannot clearly identify both sides of the debate?

And, if we can't say that some individuals who live as males were born female, and vice versa, how can we quantify the possible conflicts?

And if men and women can all have XX or XY chromosomes how do we discuss and medicate sex specific ailments, discuss sex specific issues?

InLoveWithDavidTennant · 15/06/2018 12:30

SDTG I read it as them not wanting to use the word woman by itself. They dont use woman to describe us in any way, shape or form. They just use "cis". Using woman in refrence to us is a big no no for them, because they want the word woman all to themselves.

AnnUnderTheFryingPan · 15/06/2018 12:33

Natasha can fuck off.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/06/2018 12:46

Because as we both know, spelling them without a space is intended to linguistically deny use of the term woman ie transwoman is a transphobic parody of trans woman

No actually that’s not something I have comes across at all previously. My phone keyboard stubbornly puts a space in or leaves it out at will I’m afraid. It also capitalises Male for some random reason and refuses to say sperm. Most peculiar.

Anyway, I really dont quite understand what you’re saying. So transwoman (no space) is transphobic but trans woman is not? Is that correct? I was of the opinion that transwoman was an allowed word on here and I certainly don’t feel that lacking a space is a parody or offensive in any way. How does the space or lack of make a difference? It seems that it insists that ONLY the term woman is acceptable to you.

Is that the case? Or am I misreading this?

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/06/2018 12:49

I’d also be interested in whether you feel human beings can change sex, if you wouldn’t mind answering that as well?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 15/06/2018 12:51

Personally i dont have a massive issue with the guidelines as they stand...posts are going to get long winded and confusing as posters try and verbalise the issues. I still dont get the natal sex bit but that's probably just me Grin

Ive always used transperson etc

And im glad cis and terf aren't allowed

But absolutely i get the point that all forms of 'censership' on here may well stifle debate

And i will be very unhappy if the same rules aren't used elsewhere on the site, i dont see why FWR needs to be held up to any higher standards. Out and out goady threads about benefits, disabled people, race etc are allowed to stand on other boards

NotTerfNorCis · 15/06/2018 12:55

should we should regard this as the modern equivalent of book-burning?

Glad to see a TRA so unexpectedly anti-censorship. I do hope they'll speak out in defence of Sheila Jeffreys and Germaine Greer.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 15/06/2018 12:55

regard this as the modern equivalent of book-burning

They do know books still exist dont they

So the modern equivalent of burning books is errrmmm....burning books

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 15/06/2018 12:56

Oooh cross posts

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 15/06/2018 12:59

Look, if both sides are complaining, that makes me think MN have got it about right.

Yep

sanluca · 15/06/2018 13:06

And the next demand came in, I see. Pff. Wish they would go away, they are becoming like little flies buzzing around my head with their tantrums and demands.

littlbrowndog · 15/06/2018 13:19

But if they don’t like us why keep coming here. It’s bonkers. You don’t like a forum just don’t go there

I don’t run about forums demanding how people there should speak

I don’t like it I don’t go there

BettyDuMonde · 15/06/2018 13:21

Sanluca - now you have put me in mind of Jeff Goldblum and his transinsect (?) status at the end of The Fly!

Halfeatentoast · 15/06/2018 13:25

Hopping
Didn’t someone say that if you have to reference The Nazis you’ve already lost your argument?

Not sure but that's the point I stopped trying to concentrate and take it seriously, so probably yes.

StepBackNow · 15/06/2018 13:25

But if they don’t like us why keep coming here. It’s bonkers. You don’t like a forum just don’t go there

But they want to be affronted and indignant. It's like something out of Monty Python but they are unable to see how ridiculous they look.

Sparklywolf · 15/06/2018 13:43

Surely Magnus Hirschfeld's books were on the fire primarily for his being Jewish and an academic?

Presumably a simple Google search was beneath either personas of this mulit-published academic!

Moonkissedlegs · 15/06/2018 13:45

But if they don’t like us why keep coming here. It’s bonkers. You don’t like a forum just don’t go there

Yeah exactly. There are loads of forums (fora?) out there that I think are absolutely vile. What about that 'Men Going Their Own Way' or whatever its called? But I don't keep going on about policing the language used on there and 'censorship' and other such bollocks. I just stay away and let them fester in their own misogyny.

I think a lot of this is to do with the old expectation that a website run by women for women is supposed to be kind and accommodating and 'nice'.

Kyanite · 15/06/2018 13:48

It is possible for Fascism to exist outside Nazi Germany and to do so today.

The re-writing of science and history is a concern. This is how these movements start and we are well and truly down the rabbit hole here.

BeyondSceptical · 15/06/2018 13:59

Sparkly, tbh it's surprising that Dr Hirschfeld wasn't retrospectively transed and his books burnt for that.

NotTerfNorCis · 15/06/2018 14:13

Just been on Twitter. Loving the hysterical TRA responses to 'cis' being banned. "They are censoring us!!!!" etc. Do these guys have no insight into their behaviour?

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 15/06/2018 14:13

Surely Magnus Hirschfeld's books were on the fire primarily for his being Jewish and an academic?

Ssh, stop it with your facts, they're getting in the way of Natacha's rant extremely well argued thesis.

Being serious, why the references to book burning at all? Are radfems getting together to have mass burnings of trans literature? Hmm, thought not.

Fallingirl · 15/06/2018 15:17

Transactivists trashed a womens library in Canada for having second wave feminist books. I have not heard of any feminists trashing books on trans rights. I do not think mentioning book burning in this context is wise of Kennedy!

BlooperReel · 15/06/2018 15:30

I really wish Justine et al would just re-grow their spines and tell the TRA's to piss off and that they will NOT be allowed to encroach on free speech, no fucker has a right not to be offended.

If they don't like what is said here, how about don't bastard well look? I despise a lot of what goes on on 4chan, so guess what, I don't read it, it is not difficult.

Swipe left for the next trending thread