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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA response to Mumsnet new pro trans guidelines

343 replies

Southfields · 15/06/2018 10:27

As many on here predicted, they are STILL not satisfied. They believe the new guidelines from Justine are transphobic.

So, MN feminists don't like the new guidelines and nor do the TRA.

Where do we go from here?

By transwoman Natasha Kennedy:

Wednesday, 13 June 2018

False equivalence on stilts: Mumsnet's new censorship.

Today Mumsnet have come out with some badly transphobic guidelines which can only be regarded ill-considered at the most generous, profoundly transphobic at worst. They have said they are going to ban transphobia, terms like "TIM" ("Trans-identified male") and the like, although transphobes on Mumsnet are apparently already trying to find ways of producing new abusive and transphobic terms in order to get round this. How many hundreds of mods Mumsnet are going to employ to monitor this is unclear.

However for false equivalence they have decided ban the term "cis-". This is not only ridiculous, it is profoundly transphobic and reflects the institutional transphobia endemic at Mumsnet. "Cis-" as a prefix, they claim is offensive to "feminists", swallowing the rhetoric that "cis-" is somehow a form of abuse (in fact it is only a form of abuse if you are a transphobic bigot). Mumsnet are exposing their bias here and it isn't pretty.

The prefix "cis-" was first used in relation to gender by Dr Ernst Burchard, a cisgender doctor - and one of the earliest campaigners for gay rights - in "Lexikon des Gesamten Sexuallebens" published in German in 1914 and the term "cisgender" was first used by a cis male academic called Sigusch in 1998. It was created in order to provide a counterbalance to "trans-" so that people didn't have to say "non-trans" or "normal" when referring to someone who is cisgender. "Cis-" is effectively like the prefix "hetero-" in heterosexual. We don't talk about people who are not gay men or lesbians as "normal" people, so why should be have to do just that for trans people on Mumsnet?

In effect Mumsnet have censored trans people from using their discussion boards because we can no longer name people who are cisgender except in a way that Others us, pathologizes us or marks us out as somehow "abnormal" or not valid. In effect this is an Orwellian kind of censorship at a lexicon level (like "doubleplusgood") from a media platform that has complained noisily about Orwellian "censorship" when trans people called them out on the abuse we have been receiving on Mumsnet.

So it doesn't just reveal Mumsnet's institutional transphobia but their profound hypocrisy also. They cried foul to that other transphobic media platform, The Times, about being held to account for the transphobia in their forums yet have now banned some elements of the very behaviour they said trans people were threatening "censorship" by complaining about. In other words by their own standards of a few weeks ago they now are "censoring" themselves. This is not merely hypocritical, it is pathetic.

They are effectively excluding discussion by trans people and our allies by denying us legitimate terminology; banning a term that is, by the way, in the Oxford English Dictionary. Without being able to use a term like "cisgender" they are effectively making it impossible for trans people to engage in any meaningful debate in important areas. Their attempt to appear even-handed has ended up being oppressive and effectively taking the side of the oppressor. False equivalence is the name of the game, something trans people are very familiar with in the media, particularly broadcast media. And something the CEO of Mumsnet should be very familiar with since her partner is a senior commissioning editor in Channel 4, which recently produced an abusive and demeaning "debate" about my right to exist.

Mumsnet have got it badly wrong, they have demonstrated that

they are institutionally transphobic and in Desmond Tutu's terms are not even taking the side of the oppressor by being neutral, they are taking the side of the oppressor, period. Their motivation for this...? The only conclusion I can come up with is that they want to maintain their abusive transphobic user-base while avoiding complaints of abuse to advertisers; screenshots of transphobic abuse next to adverts make advertisers nervous. It is worth noting that trans people have been complaining about this kind of transphobic abuse on their site for literally years and they have arrogantly ignored us and brushed us off.

But the implications of Mumsnet's censorship go much further into dangerous territory...

As an academic the last place I would ever want go to discuss my work is of course Mumsnet, but now even if I wanted to I would be unable to since my most recent peer-reviewed publications, and some soon to come not only use terms with the prefix "cis-" ("Cultural cisgenderism" and "Cis-mythologization") throughout but they use them in the title. In effect my research is now banned from Mumsnet. No great loss from my point of view but should we should regard this as the modern equivalent of book-burning?

When the Nazis started to burn

books in Berlin University in 1933, among the first into the flames were those of Magnus Hirschfeld, a researcher into trans people. The comparison is too obvious not to make. Indeed I am not the only academic some of whose work it is now prohibited to discuss on Mumsnet; Gavi Ansara's and Peter Hegarty's award-winning research publication "Cisgenderism in psychology: pathologising and misgendering children from 1999 to 2008" (which originally coined the term "cisgenderism") is also banned under Mumsnet's new regime as are works by both transgender and cisgender academics including; Dr Ruth Pearce, Prof Dean Spade, Dr Julia Serano, Prof Rogers Brubaker, Prof Susan Stryker, Dr Jemma Tosh, Dr Diane Ehrensaft, Asst Prof Z Nicolazzo, Asst Prof Tobias Raun, Prof Sara Ahmed, Dr Meg-John Barker, CN Lester... I could go on and on...

To go from complaining to mainstream media about "censorship" to implementing a thoroughly Orwellian censorship regime of its own is quite a feat of hypocrisy even by Mumsnet's own pitiful standards, and something trans people are used to as pretty much the default setting of transphobes. However banning a term that is the equivalent of "heterosexual-" is not only bizarre but profoundly oppressive, the fact that it prevents the discussion of work by a wide range of academics is, in practical terms no great loss, Mumsnet is really just a cesspit of hate and ignorance. The symbolism of it however is very significant indeed.

uncommon-scents.blogspot.com/2018/06/false-equivalence-on-stilts-mumsnets.html

OP posts:
Bespin · 18/06/2018 10:05

We have been in dry dock for the last week so busy painting and now we are waiting to leave then helping our friends do there boat as they are in next. Like everyone we all have lives outside of here and debating this is not my. Priority and educating people about things that they can find or read is upto them like the other poster said it might solidify there views I'm. Not trying to change there view I just want it to come from a place of information I beleave there is a debate that is needed as rights are never won but given. You don't have to agree with me but it would be nice if we could stop all the nastyness on both sides of this debate

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/06/2018 12:25

Good luck with the refloating! That must be nerve wracking...

Jollygrandma · 20/06/2018 20:04

According to Posie Parker and Magdalen Berns, a bomb threat was sent to WPUK meeting in Hastings, UK. Police bomb squad disposed of equipment at a house nearby.

Jollygrandma · 20/06/2018 20:38

According to Posie Parker and Magdalen Berns, a bomb threat was sent to WPUK meeting in Hastings, UK. Police bomb squad disposed of equipment at a house nearby.
MN has removed this once. Let's see how long it takes them to remove it again. I hope some of you see this.

Jollygrandma · 20/06/2018 20:49

I live on the other side of the pond, and I'm an old radical. A lot of you have been talking about holding quiet, secret, under-the-radar meetings. I think that's an excellent plan.

Why do I care? Because I agree with what Sheila Jeffries has said. This is an international issue, an international threat against little girls and women. Huge amounts of powerful money are funding this so-called activism.

I hope you all find a way to talk to each other OFFLINE and safely.

Angryresister · 20/06/2018 20:59

Terrorist for sure. Why did mumsnet take it down I wonder.

Jollygrandma · 20/06/2018 21:04

I thought, @Angryresister, that they had taken it down because I tried to refresh and got blocked. However, it appears they have NOT taken it down. I would delete the second message if I knew how to.

PoodlesOfFund · 20/06/2018 22:07

Again this is a misunderstanding people just want time off for medical purposes as some companies don't allow this as its is classed as elective like a boob job. We feel that gender dysphoria is not something you elect to have

Sorry bespin, can you explain why a mtf's boob job to 'transition' is more worthy of time off than a woman who has spent twenty years of her life being made to feel her female body wasn't 'womanly' enough? You sound quite dismissive. Why is her body dysmorphia less deserving than a mtf gender dysphoria? She didn't 'elect' to live in a society that told her that her natural body wasn't good enough either.

thebewilderness · 20/06/2018 22:18

I despair of you, bespin. You say you want an end to nastiness on both sides. Both the violent males and the angry women. Then you tell us women's rights are negotiable. Nasty.
Not trying to change there view I just want it to come from a place of information I beleave there is a debate that is needed as rights are never won but given.

ElliePhantW33 · 21/06/2018 01:35

The problem is website owners are responsible for the content they host, megaupload is a good example of website owner being held accountable for it's content

Soon if a person or org hosts content that's found to be unlawful they will face prosecution and rightfully so

The UK isn't like the US where people can say what they like without punishment, free speech is a privilege in the UK

I can foresee mumsnet getting in to deep trouble if they don't keep for their new rules and crack down on hate speech in any shape or form not just hate to trans but hate to any users of the website

spontaneousgiventime · 21/06/2018 01:39

Found a new thread to be a GF on I see Ellie.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/06/2018 01:46

ODFOD. A nice acronym for Phant.

Ereshkigal · 21/06/2018 02:06

I can foresee mumsnet getting in to deep trouble if they don't keep for their new rules and crack down on hate speech in any shape or form not just hate to trans but hate to any users of the website

What about hate of women? Oh yes silly me, no one gives a fuck.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 21/06/2018 02:12

We are discussing the rights, dignity, privacy and safety of women, girls and children. Why is this so problematic for some men?
The rights, dignity, privacy and safety of women, girls and children.

ElliePhantW33 · 21/06/2018 02:16

@Prawnofthepatriarchy thanks I like elephants, they can paint

MistressDeeCee · 21/06/2018 03:15

Lord, that was hard going.

Oh, and visit is offensive. I don't accept labels.

Norther · 21/06/2018 03:40

'hopefully demonstrate as WE have done in the past that a lot of the fears are not founded'.

Early morning paranoia. That boat isnt called raffles by any chance?

Albadross · 24/06/2018 09:22

I resent this idea that we're being 'nasty' because we're somehow a group of misinformed hysterical women.

Of COURSE this is linked to the EA. The EA sex-based protections that allow for exclusion for a legitimate aim is being ignored in advance of any changes to the GRA.

I've read a ton of stuff by Serano and others and frankly what I read only cemented my GC view. Serano's arguments about secondary sex characteristics makes very little sense and has been thoroughly debunked by others extremely clearly.

As a woman with autism I have dedicated months of reading to this; it's a special interest of mine and I'm someone who likes to have all the information before I form an opinion. To suggest that the only reason I disagree with the TRA arguments is because I haven't read enough is a massive assumption - I thought you were sick of assumptions @Bespin?

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