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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA response to Mumsnet new pro trans guidelines

343 replies

Southfields · 15/06/2018 10:27

As many on here predicted, they are STILL not satisfied. They believe the new guidelines from Justine are transphobic.

So, MN feminists don't like the new guidelines and nor do the TRA.

Where do we go from here?

By transwoman Natasha Kennedy:

Wednesday, 13 June 2018

False equivalence on stilts: Mumsnet's new censorship.

Today Mumsnet have come out with some badly transphobic guidelines which can only be regarded ill-considered at the most generous, profoundly transphobic at worst. They have said they are going to ban transphobia, terms like "TIM" ("Trans-identified male") and the like, although transphobes on Mumsnet are apparently already trying to find ways of producing new abusive and transphobic terms in order to get round this. How many hundreds of mods Mumsnet are going to employ to monitor this is unclear.

However for false equivalence they have decided ban the term "cis-". This is not only ridiculous, it is profoundly transphobic and reflects the institutional transphobia endemic at Mumsnet. "Cis-" as a prefix, they claim is offensive to "feminists", swallowing the rhetoric that "cis-" is somehow a form of abuse (in fact it is only a form of abuse if you are a transphobic bigot). Mumsnet are exposing their bias here and it isn't pretty.

The prefix "cis-" was first used in relation to gender by Dr Ernst Burchard, a cisgender doctor - and one of the earliest campaigners for gay rights - in "Lexikon des Gesamten Sexuallebens" published in German in 1914 and the term "cisgender" was first used by a cis male academic called Sigusch in 1998. It was created in order to provide a counterbalance to "trans-" so that people didn't have to say "non-trans" or "normal" when referring to someone who is cisgender. "Cis-" is effectively like the prefix "hetero-" in heterosexual. We don't talk about people who are not gay men or lesbians as "normal" people, so why should be have to do just that for trans people on Mumsnet?

In effect Mumsnet have censored trans people from using their discussion boards because we can no longer name people who are cisgender except in a way that Others us, pathologizes us or marks us out as somehow "abnormal" or not valid. In effect this is an Orwellian kind of censorship at a lexicon level (like "doubleplusgood") from a media platform that has complained noisily about Orwellian "censorship" when trans people called them out on the abuse we have been receiving on Mumsnet.

So it doesn't just reveal Mumsnet's institutional transphobia but their profound hypocrisy also. They cried foul to that other transphobic media platform, The Times, about being held to account for the transphobia in their forums yet have now banned some elements of the very behaviour they said trans people were threatening "censorship" by complaining about. In other words by their own standards of a few weeks ago they now are "censoring" themselves. This is not merely hypocritical, it is pathetic.

They are effectively excluding discussion by trans people and our allies by denying us legitimate terminology; banning a term that is, by the way, in the Oxford English Dictionary. Without being able to use a term like "cisgender" they are effectively making it impossible for trans people to engage in any meaningful debate in important areas. Their attempt to appear even-handed has ended up being oppressive and effectively taking the side of the oppressor. False equivalence is the name of the game, something trans people are very familiar with in the media, particularly broadcast media. And something the CEO of Mumsnet should be very familiar with since her partner is a senior commissioning editor in Channel 4, which recently produced an abusive and demeaning "debate" about my right to exist.

Mumsnet have got it badly wrong, they have demonstrated that

they are institutionally transphobic and in Desmond Tutu's terms are not even taking the side of the oppressor by being neutral, they are taking the side of the oppressor, period. Their motivation for this...? The only conclusion I can come up with is that they want to maintain their abusive transphobic user-base while avoiding complaints of abuse to advertisers; screenshots of transphobic abuse next to adverts make advertisers nervous. It is worth noting that trans people have been complaining about this kind of transphobic abuse on their site for literally years and they have arrogantly ignored us and brushed us off.

But the implications of Mumsnet's censorship go much further into dangerous territory...

As an academic the last place I would ever want go to discuss my work is of course Mumsnet, but now even if I wanted to I would be unable to since my most recent peer-reviewed publications, and some soon to come not only use terms with the prefix "cis-" ("Cultural cisgenderism" and "Cis-mythologization") throughout but they use them in the title. In effect my research is now banned from Mumsnet. No great loss from my point of view but should we should regard this as the modern equivalent of book-burning?

When the Nazis started to burn

books in Berlin University in 1933, among the first into the flames were those of Magnus Hirschfeld, a researcher into trans people. The comparison is too obvious not to make. Indeed I am not the only academic some of whose work it is now prohibited to discuss on Mumsnet; Gavi Ansara's and Peter Hegarty's award-winning research publication "Cisgenderism in psychology: pathologising and misgendering children from 1999 to 2008" (which originally coined the term "cisgenderism") is also banned under Mumsnet's new regime as are works by both transgender and cisgender academics including; Dr Ruth Pearce, Prof Dean Spade, Dr Julia Serano, Prof Rogers Brubaker, Prof Susan Stryker, Dr Jemma Tosh, Dr Diane Ehrensaft, Asst Prof Z Nicolazzo, Asst Prof Tobias Raun, Prof Sara Ahmed, Dr Meg-John Barker, CN Lester... I could go on and on...

To go from complaining to mainstream media about "censorship" to implementing a thoroughly Orwellian censorship regime of its own is quite a feat of hypocrisy even by Mumsnet's own pitiful standards, and something trans people are used to as pretty much the default setting of transphobes. However banning a term that is the equivalent of "heterosexual-" is not only bizarre but profoundly oppressive, the fact that it prevents the discussion of work by a wide range of academics is, in practical terms no great loss, Mumsnet is really just a cesspit of hate and ignorance. The symbolism of it however is very significant indeed.

uncommon-scents.blogspot.com/2018/06/false-equivalence-on-stilts-mumsnets.html

OP posts:
Picassospaintbrush · 15/06/2018 11:18

I'm not surprised Kennedy is raging. If trans lobbyists can't claim that everyone has a subjective gender "soul" wlth no connection to their sex, a great dollop of their argument disappears.

Absolutely prawn. Nice to meet you Wednesday BTW.

This is so clear isn't it. If this lovely fluffy reason for being a cross dresser doesn't exist then we are simply looking at cross dressers.

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/grayson-perry-says-not-wearing-a-dress-doesnt-stop-you-from-being-a-transvestite-9777881.html

LangCleg · 15/06/2018 11:18

Well, colour me shocked! Insatiable male supremacist movement remains insatiably male supremacist!

Natacha can type as many words as Natacha likes. Won't change the gaping chasm between reality and identity.

LangCleg · 15/06/2018 11:20

But the question is Rat why are TRAs so invested in arguing with women on Mumsnet? Why not the billion other places online where actual real transphobia is rife?

Because they know it's successfully opinion-forming and consciousness-raising. Therefore it must be annihilated.

ShotsFired · 15/06/2018 11:20

Does the author of that article attend the Donald Trump school of writing, whereby anything they don't like is just classed as "transphobic" ("fake news"), regardless of the actual facts!

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 15/06/2018 11:24

Yes, Picassospaintbrush, it was very cool to meet you too. A really buzzy evening. I couldn't sleep for hours!

GenderApostate · 15/06/2018 11:24

Well, nobody saw that one coming Hmm
I’d like to think MN are playing the long game and giving them enough rope.

StepBackNow · 15/06/2018 11:24

Such a nasty little tantrum.

EmilieDuChatelet · 15/06/2018 11:25

MN name changer, lurker and occasional poster. However I check the FWR most days to see how the debate is progressing, what RL action is going taking place, get the heads up on meetings etc.

I feel the value is that it is a spring-board to RL action and discussion. I will be sticking around, as well as to talk to those who are thinking about this strange, strange situation we all find ourselves in.

Moonkissedlegs · 15/06/2018 11:26

Because they know it's successfully opinion-forming and consciousness-raising. Therefore it must be annihilated.

Well yes, quite. I was trying to think of an equivalent group that TRAs might see feminists as. Say they see us as like Britain First. Now the way that the like of BF and the EDL are exposed is not by shutting them down, it is quite the opposite. Let them speak, set up FB groups called 'Exposing Britain First', interview members on the telly and let everyone see what a big bunch of fuck wits they are and how baseless their arguments are.

Funnily enough TRAs are not choosing this tactic to 'expose' the 'transphobia' of feminists.

TerfsUp · 15/06/2018 11:30

surely they question has to be why TRAs are so invested on not being 'censored' on a largely female, parenting website for mothers?

Because they are not and never can be "mums". Because there are topics in MN that address things only women can experience, like menstruation and childbirth. Because there is a FWR board that refuses to bow down to men and their feelz.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/06/2018 11:31

Agree about the exposure - nick griffin made an utter fool of himself on question time and that was the best way of showing their ideology for what it is.

If this ideology is so ‘right’ then why aren’t those who hold it wanting to talk about it? Get it into the media? Be happy to take questions?

I’m happy to talk on my work, my field, and my opinions on things like GC feminism. I fed I can hold my own in debate and I’m happy to discuss. I’m suspicious of any group who shut down any dissent rather than talk to build consensus.

Why don’t they want to talk about it?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 15/06/2018 11:31

What with the narcissism and the talking bollocks, Trump and Kennedy are two chips off the same block, Shots.

Picassospaintbrush · 15/06/2018 11:31

And by the way Natacha. I don't need a word for "not a cross dresser".

dolorsit · 15/06/2018 11:34

I'm starting to wonder if Mumsnet have played a blinder here.

Yes they have pissed off GC posters.

But

This will be reported wider in the media.

Media and other curious people will come here.

They will see how the GC posters don't like "cis" and "terf" but aren't bothered about banning it.

They will see pro trans rights posters wanting more words to be defined as phobic.

They will see some trans rights posters being even more obtuse and posting some frankly ridiculously daft stuff.

They will see the articles complaining about the banning of cis and stating that is transphobic.

I don't think this is going to sway people in the way the TRA think it will.

Moonkissedlegs · 15/06/2018 11:37

Why don’t they want to talk about it?

Yes, people like Paris Lees and Fox whatshisname claim to be 'campaigners' for trans rights. But actually, they don't really do any 'campaigning' at all - they refuse to actually discuss the issues at all on telly/radio, they say they are not 'prepared to debate their existence'. They seem to just expect that women the world will bow down and take what they say as gospel, and when this doesn't happen and women say 'hang on, what about.....' they throw their toys out of the pram.

It's actually classic male entitlement behaviour when you think about it.

Picassospaintbrush · 15/06/2018 11:39

Yes they have pissed off GC posters.

I'm not pissed off. I rarely, if ever, used the three letter acronym which is banned. I do not see this restricting what I say at all. Referring to gender reassigned or cross dressers is fine by me.

Macareaux · 15/06/2018 11:41

This might make me row back slightly on considering leaving.

At the time of the last flare up, I encouraged people to stay but I thought MNHQ had gone too far this time.

I'm now reconsidering if they are just treading a line to help us in the face of enormous outside pressure.

After all, I am kind of inclined to think that, unless any of the mods think they are the opposite sex or no sex at all, it's hard to imagine that they have not been turned into raging t e r f s by the debate on here anyway.

Once you see it you can't unsee it as they say.

Hoppinggreen · 15/06/2018 11:44

Didn’t someone say that if you have to reference The Nazis you’ve already lost your argument?

Snappity · 15/06/2018 11:44

and I hope transwoman and transman without the space are a breach of the new guidelines)

Why?

Because as we both know, spelling them without a space is intended to linguistically deny use of the term woman ie transwoman is a transphobic parody of trans woman

heresyandwitchcraft · 15/06/2018 11:50

Natasha's blog post is being quoted verbatim in this forum. These are Natasha's actual words, visible for all to see. Natasha's text is littered with "cis," and we may find these opinions highly objectionable.... and yet... it's not been taken down. No gender critical feminists have called for its censure, as far as I know...
So remind me again which side is the one demanding silence and conformity?

Picassospaintbrush · 15/06/2018 11:56

I interpreted the cis thing as an ending to the round and round conversations that go:

You are cis

No i'm not

You are cis

No I am not.

TBH less of those conversations is a relief.

Discussion of the words in the ideology is still reasonable as debunking it is important, but in a less personal manner.

After all, the new version of the EA and GRA was intended to include new shiny genderology phrases to mask the reality, we can still discuss this, impersonally.

It is vital we do.

dolorsit · 15/06/2018 12:05

I'm not pissed off.

I'm glad to hear it, but I did want to acknowledge the posters who are angry, in a hey maybe this is a good thing kinda way.

TBH I was actually thinking of the posters in the GC autistic women thread who are quite distressed at having to tell lies from their point of view.

dolorsit · 15/06/2018 12:07

Bugger corrected repost

I'm not pissed off.

I'm glad to hear it, but I did want to acknowledge the posters who are angry, " in a hey maybe this is a good thing kinda way" post

TBH I was actually thinking of the posters in the GC autistic women thread who are quite distressed at having to tell lies from their point of view.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 15/06/2018 12:09

It says a lot for the quality of debate (or lack thereof) from the TRAs, that they feel that, if they can't use the term cisgender, they won't be able to have any sort of debate about it (not that they actually want a debate, but that's a different point) - whilst we wily MNers are already thinking of other terms to use instead of TIM.

Are they seriously saying - it's not fair that we can't use the term 'cis' because we are too dim to think of an alternative?? Or is that a happy accident?

Southfields · 15/06/2018 12:12

*Macareaux"

"I'm now reconsidering if they are just treading a line to help us in the face of enormous outside pressure."

This seems a good time to remind everyone that the people doing this are a very small number - less than 20. They have made themselves look like a lot because they are combining and discussing and planning, organised, focussed, and relentless.

Why aren't we being the same?

OP posts:
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