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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA response to Mumsnet new pro trans guidelines

343 replies

Southfields · 15/06/2018 10:27

As many on here predicted, they are STILL not satisfied. They believe the new guidelines from Justine are transphobic.

So, MN feminists don't like the new guidelines and nor do the TRA.

Where do we go from here?

By transwoman Natasha Kennedy:

Wednesday, 13 June 2018

False equivalence on stilts: Mumsnet's new censorship.

Today Mumsnet have come out with some badly transphobic guidelines which can only be regarded ill-considered at the most generous, profoundly transphobic at worst. They have said they are going to ban transphobia, terms like "TIM" ("Trans-identified male") and the like, although transphobes on Mumsnet are apparently already trying to find ways of producing new abusive and transphobic terms in order to get round this. How many hundreds of mods Mumsnet are going to employ to monitor this is unclear.

However for false equivalence they have decided ban the term "cis-". This is not only ridiculous, it is profoundly transphobic and reflects the institutional transphobia endemic at Mumsnet. "Cis-" as a prefix, they claim is offensive to "feminists", swallowing the rhetoric that "cis-" is somehow a form of abuse (in fact it is only a form of abuse if you are a transphobic bigot). Mumsnet are exposing their bias here and it isn't pretty.

The prefix "cis-" was first used in relation to gender by Dr Ernst Burchard, a cisgender doctor - and one of the earliest campaigners for gay rights - in "Lexikon des Gesamten Sexuallebens" published in German in 1914 and the term "cisgender" was first used by a cis male academic called Sigusch in 1998. It was created in order to provide a counterbalance to "trans-" so that people didn't have to say "non-trans" or "normal" when referring to someone who is cisgender. "Cis-" is effectively like the prefix "hetero-" in heterosexual. We don't talk about people who are not gay men or lesbians as "normal" people, so why should be have to do just that for trans people on Mumsnet?

In effect Mumsnet have censored trans people from using their discussion boards because we can no longer name people who are cisgender except in a way that Others us, pathologizes us or marks us out as somehow "abnormal" or not valid. In effect this is an Orwellian kind of censorship at a lexicon level (like "doubleplusgood") from a media platform that has complained noisily about Orwellian "censorship" when trans people called them out on the abuse we have been receiving on Mumsnet.

So it doesn't just reveal Mumsnet's institutional transphobia but their profound hypocrisy also. They cried foul to that other transphobic media platform, The Times, about being held to account for the transphobia in their forums yet have now banned some elements of the very behaviour they said trans people were threatening "censorship" by complaining about. In other words by their own standards of a few weeks ago they now are "censoring" themselves. This is not merely hypocritical, it is pathetic.

They are effectively excluding discussion by trans people and our allies by denying us legitimate terminology; banning a term that is, by the way, in the Oxford English Dictionary. Without being able to use a term like "cisgender" they are effectively making it impossible for trans people to engage in any meaningful debate in important areas. Their attempt to appear even-handed has ended up being oppressive and effectively taking the side of the oppressor. False equivalence is the name of the game, something trans people are very familiar with in the media, particularly broadcast media. And something the CEO of Mumsnet should be very familiar with since her partner is a senior commissioning editor in Channel 4, which recently produced an abusive and demeaning "debate" about my right to exist.

Mumsnet have got it badly wrong, they have demonstrated that

they are institutionally transphobic and in Desmond Tutu's terms are not even taking the side of the oppressor by being neutral, they are taking the side of the oppressor, period. Their motivation for this...? The only conclusion I can come up with is that they want to maintain their abusive transphobic user-base while avoiding complaints of abuse to advertisers; screenshots of transphobic abuse next to adverts make advertisers nervous. It is worth noting that trans people have been complaining about this kind of transphobic abuse on their site for literally years and they have arrogantly ignored us and brushed us off.

But the implications of Mumsnet's censorship go much further into dangerous territory...

As an academic the last place I would ever want go to discuss my work is of course Mumsnet, but now even if I wanted to I would be unable to since my most recent peer-reviewed publications, and some soon to come not only use terms with the prefix "cis-" ("Cultural cisgenderism" and "Cis-mythologization") throughout but they use them in the title. In effect my research is now banned from Mumsnet. No great loss from my point of view but should we should regard this as the modern equivalent of book-burning?

When the Nazis started to burn

books in Berlin University in 1933, among the first into the flames were those of Magnus Hirschfeld, a researcher into trans people. The comparison is too obvious not to make. Indeed I am not the only academic some of whose work it is now prohibited to discuss on Mumsnet; Gavi Ansara's and Peter Hegarty's award-winning research publication "Cisgenderism in psychology: pathologising and misgendering children from 1999 to 2008" (which originally coined the term "cisgenderism") is also banned under Mumsnet's new regime as are works by both transgender and cisgender academics including; Dr Ruth Pearce, Prof Dean Spade, Dr Julia Serano, Prof Rogers Brubaker, Prof Susan Stryker, Dr Jemma Tosh, Dr Diane Ehrensaft, Asst Prof Z Nicolazzo, Asst Prof Tobias Raun, Prof Sara Ahmed, Dr Meg-John Barker, CN Lester... I could go on and on...

To go from complaining to mainstream media about "censorship" to implementing a thoroughly Orwellian censorship regime of its own is quite a feat of hypocrisy even by Mumsnet's own pitiful standards, and something trans people are used to as pretty much the default setting of transphobes. However banning a term that is the equivalent of "heterosexual-" is not only bizarre but profoundly oppressive, the fact that it prevents the discussion of work by a wide range of academics is, in practical terms no great loss, Mumsnet is really just a cesspit of hate and ignorance. The symbolism of it however is very significant indeed.

uncommon-scents.blogspot.com/2018/06/false-equivalence-on-stilts-mumsnets.html

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 18/06/2018 07:54

The GC critical side in this is not the emotionally incontinent one.

I'd honestly be too embarrassed to have the kind of public meltdowns the other side often has. Had learned that that wasn't appropriate for someone of my age by the time I was about 5.

Pratchet · 18/06/2018 07:59

That's perfect - 'emotionally incontinent' is very apt here.

CosmicCanary · 18/06/2018 08:04

It’s very interesting that that is always thrown at women isn't it? That we are hysterical, emotional and angry.

Yes we are not allowed to be angry or emotional because it is seen as a flaw, a reason to ingnore what we are saying. Two normal human emotions but when displayed by women they are used against us.
Men have a tendancy to be show violence when they are angry and upset which is usually ok'd because "he was angry its understandable, you upset him what do you expect"

Women showing any form of negative emotion is usually met with dismissal. We are meant to be doll like and show nothing but a smile on our pretty porcelain faces.

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 08:10

In my defence, I did suggest that a poster last night moderated herself a bit-not because she was angry, but because she was likely to get deleted.

Bespin · 18/06/2018 08:13

Totally agree that this needs to be facts lead debate happy to debate it in that way and hopefully demonstrate as we have done in the past that a lot of the fears are not founded. That is not to say that they are not genuine. I don't have the figures to hand at the moment as last time it was on twitter but its something to do with overall populations and it works out close to the number of other woman who are in prison for sexual offences. Though I actually agree that there does appear to be a number of men who are trying to use this. I only. Hope that they are scrutinised a lot and people can tell when they are not Truely genuine in there belief but I'm worried about that too.
People were not simply disagreeing with my strongly but taking what had been said and using it out of context to make there point. When we actually get to the point when we debate self id then I look forward to working out an actual solution. When all the rights we have now we're given we were debating them with people who were interested but at the time there were a lot less of us on both sides but both sides were still represented. As people are now learning about things that have been going on for years they are having to catch up and have not done a lot of the reading but they have a view and that is still valid but they make a lot of assumptions to fill in the gaps in there knowledge.

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 08:14

But yes- the "he was angry- what do you expect?" is a common theme. You often see it on here when people talk about male partners and sons breaking things. It's chilling. And the automatic socialised response of women is to retreat, to appease, to introspect. Which is what is happening in the trans debate. I am sure that many women have concerns but struggle to express them.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/06/2018 08:15

The number of women in prison for sexual offenses is not even close to 41%. If you're attempting to compare the total number of women to the total number of male prisoners who claim to be trans then that's just silly, given the over prevalence of trans people in the population is so low. It's comparing apples to donuts.

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 08:16

"but they make a lot of assumptions to fill in the gaps in there knowledge."

Could you give an example of the sort of assumptions you mean, please?

Bespin · 18/06/2018 08:26

I didn't say it was 41% it's as you say about per population and I agree there appears to be an issue with this. Though having experiance of vikki Thompson and talked with the people who tried to help her this is not just a onesided debate and a real. Solution is needed.

The Linking of the epaulity act and the gra is the biggest assumption. But there are. A. Number being made around young people and the work that is done with them something I have direct experience with

moimichme · 18/06/2018 08:31

Bespin, I'd be interested to read a summary of the history and of the misunderstandings that you think GC posters have, if you've explained it to others before or if there are any good articles you've found? I'm not able to commit to several books, since I already have to do a lot of reading in my day job.

Bespin · 18/06/2018 08:38

There are lots of links on twitter to articles I'm mostly on my phone so don't have access to a lot of the stuff. Going to have to go today as we are floating our boat so busy day

CosmicCanary · 18/06/2018 08:43

I post a fair bit on twitter and I find myself moderating my responses if I am angry simply because I know it will be used against me and the point will be lost while the focus shifts on to my lady emotions Hmm
It has always been used as a tactic to shut women up. We then stop debating and spend our time explaining why we are angry and justifying oyr perfectly nornal emotions.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 18/06/2018 08:52

I'm frequently angry

I dont have a big issue with angry

But what she was shouting was the issue...it was almost as if she was daring MNHQ to ban her, when she'd only just turned up

If someone reports all of those posts she'll be gone, one post on a thread has already gone and she posted very similar comments on a few threads

LaSqrrl · 18/06/2018 08:52

Bespin your theme seems to be "but if you only just knew more about trans!"
That is actually the problem, we do already. That line only works on your libfem allies.
I can even tell you Serano's tackle status. I have read parts of the book. Solidified my stance if anything.

LaSqrrl · 18/06/2018 08:54

not because she was angry, but because she was likely to get deleted.
Your intention showed through clearly Bertrand

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 09:09

Bespin- I have to say that I find it very frustrating that you keep saying people have misunderstood or misinterpreted or are not in full position of the facts then having to go the minute you are asked for clarification. I assume that it’s coincidence- but it is pretty bloody convenient. I am desperate to be better informed. Trying to find stuff out is like trying to catch will o’ the whisps.

Sarahconnor1 · 18/06/2018 09:13

I have to say that I find it very frustrating that you keep saying people have misunderstood or misinterpreted or are not in full position of the facts then having to go the minute you are asked for clarification

I have noticed this happens a lot and not just with this poster!

AngryAttackKittens · 18/06/2018 09:16

I totally have proof! But...oh look is that a bird? Have to run catch a train, sorry!

KittyKlaws · 18/06/2018 09:19

Another point about bringing emotion into it. The current university climate of no platforming, #nodebate etc has removed the ability to debate. When I went to uni, we’d go to see speakers we didn’t agree with, sit politely and listen then we’d let rip in the Q and A with hard questions. We sharpened our debating claws. We listened to opinions we found distasteful and debunked them with logic, data and argument. This generation has almost lost that, and that’s a HUGE own goal for them. Because now they have no way of persuading other than to shout ‘bigot! TRANSPHOBE!’ And direct personal abuse at people. Massive own goal. Look at how people like Greer can argue - I do t see any of the aggressive activists able to bring that level of skill to the table.

Very well said - I completely agree with this.

LangCleg · 18/06/2018 09:46

Of the male-identifying male prison population, about 17% are there for sex offences.

Of the trans-identifying prison population (of the subset of trans people we don't currently have an acceptable acronym for but we all know who I mean), 41% are there for sex offences.

These figures are accurate - researched by Fair Play for Women and subsequently confirmed via FOI requests. We have two possible conclusions from this. Either:

Non-trans male sex offenders will opportunistically take on a trans ID for their own nefarious purposes if given the opportunity.

Or:

That subset of trans people that we don't currently have an acceptable collective term for are more likely to be sex offenders than other male people.

I've got to be honest. I don't give a shit one way or the other - whichever is the correct explanation, both are disastrous for women and children if self-ID goes ahead.

Bespin · 18/06/2018 09:50

Hi all jus tfor those who think I have a convenient excuse here is my boat it is now floating waiting to get the blocks removed I am busy and debating on here is not a priority for me at the moment making sure my home is floating is

TRA response to Mumsnet new pro trans guidelines
BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 09:59

Makes a difference from having a cake to decorate!

Is she being relocated or going into dry dock? We lived on ours in dry dock for a week once. It was very strange.

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 10:00

Refloated, not relocated.

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 10:01

Ah, just seen refloated. Good luck.

FloralBunting · 18/06/2018 10:02

Whatever floats your boat, bespin. 😉

I lost my temper on a Catholic message board talking about this the other day - a double whammy of guilt for not being a good woman and not being a good Catholic! It is really hard not to do when you are consistently keeping the focus on women and girls and the TRA contingent is persistently telling you to be nice, and how hard would it be to just be nice, and oh, how much these people have suffered and they just want to feel safe etc.
I just hope that those reading my comments could see what was going on, especially when every issue I brought up was dismissed with a variation of "That would never happen/I personally have no problem giving away my rights" even when I was talking about current events.