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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

681 replies

Maryz · 14/06/2018 11:44

According to KateMumsnet:

"We also thought it might be useful to clarify our thinking about general terms for trans people. Having said that TIM is not okay, it seems a bit illogical to allow other terms which hang upon natal sex."

Well that's that really, isn't it.

We are all being told to pretend that men have become women.

Am I going to be deleted/banned for this post?

OP posts:
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6
Wanderabout · 14/06/2018 18:36

Can we say biological male? Penis? Is this about specific people or in general terms.

AssassinatedBeauty · 14/06/2018 18:37

What rights do you mean @GibbertyFlibbert? Which "rights of women" do transwomen (with a GRC) not have?

Wanderabout · 14/06/2018 18:38

At what point does it kick in? GRC or just on say so of the individual? What about Ian Huntley who is only rumoured to be living as a woman? What about David Lewis?

Wanderabout · 14/06/2018 18:38

What if the person is happy to be called male like Miranda Yardley?

BiologyIsReal · 14/06/2018 18:40

It's not hard Gibberty. If you (anyone not you personally) accuses a person whose views you don't agree with of being a bigot or a transphobe - you are trying to silence them by making them feel bad or guilty for expressing or even holding those views. It's not such a long step from that to attempting to dictate what views are acceptable.

We essentially have a tiny rump of the population (much less than the 0.6% of trans people i.e. the trans activists) dictating what they find acceptable and non acceptable and - this is the important - somehow persuading those in power i.e. politicians and organisations that they too should dictate what is acceptable and not acceptable.

spontaneousgiventime · 14/06/2018 18:50

@MNHQ This is all fucking ridiculous, the whole shebang. This is a feminist board and you have all but closed down discussion.

I just hope reflection and fucking common sense prevails, otherwise what is the point of this site?

Give your bloody heads a wobble and look at what you've done.

Can't mention natal sex? What a fucking joke!

I'm going to find another site where sense rules over virtue signalling.

garam · 14/06/2018 18:50

Biology is real... so every single trans person is an activist by your figures.

If a poc group tell you some of the terms you are using is racist, you can bet they are.

If a muslim group tell you some of those terms are islamophobic they are.

If lgb people tell you some terms are homophobic they are.

Most people understand these dynamics and groups oppressed have a better understanding of their oppression than those outside the groups.

For the majority of people, they apply these rules to trans people.
But as illustrated by the huge fuss over the last 24 hours, these forums have become a place where a trans person says these terms are transphobic, it is labelled something akin to 'narcissistic male entitlement'.

And it has become a breeding ground for this mentality....... finally mumsnet are starting to understand this, and yet trans people are STILL being held as somehow responsible, when for almost half a decade trans people have been saying this, and mumsnet generally couldn't care less, as Justine tried to imply that there wasn't a problem with transphobia on these boards.

Two 20 page threads complaining because the word T.I.M. is banned and a new sparticus thread popping up, shows just how right trans people were all along.

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 18:51

"It's not hard Gibberty. If you (anyone not you personally) accuses a person whose views you don't agree with of being a bigot or a transphobe - you are trying to silence them by making them feel bad or guilty for expressing or even holding those views. It's not such a long step from that to attempting to dictate what views are acceptable."

I didn't accuse anyone of transphobia or bigotry. I expressed concern about a group of women being marginalised because they are perceived to be physically imperfect. I am guessing from the reaction to my question that you can see parallels with history too and why that should concern people.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 14/06/2018 18:54

Gibb, what are you talking about? It isn't about men not conforming to an ideal version of women, they aren't women at all!

Do you REALLY believe people can change sex? Do you actually believe that?

I can't get my head around the people that seem to genuinely think men can change sex and become women. What on earth?

BeyondSceptical · 14/06/2018 18:54

"what looks for ominous is when a group of women ..."
"...aren't even women, because their bodies don't confirm to some ideal version of women "

Righty oh. Gibb has jumped the bleeding shark.

Noqont · 14/06/2018 18:54

because their bodies don't confirm to some ideal version of women.

What version would that be then? The biology of women is fairly straightforward. For most with some sort of education anyway.

BeyondSceptical · 14/06/2018 18:56

And then...

"group of women being marginalised because they are perceived to be physically imperfect"

I think you'll find that it's us saying their bodies are fine as they are. They just aren't female.

LangCleg · 14/06/2018 19:00

because their bodies don't confirm to some ideal version of women

No, because those bodies are not women's bodies. This is a matter of biological fact. Science is still "allowed", apparently, in the new Gilead. For how long is anybody's guess.

Noqont · 14/06/2018 19:02

I think you'll find that it's us saying their bodies are fine as they are. They just aren't female

Yes.

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 19:02

This whole thread is yet another discussion on how to find language which justifies excluding a group of women because their bodies don't meet your definition of an ideal woman. Some can't be a woman because they have a penis. Ah, you had that removed, you aren't a woman because your birth certificate says male. Ah, you have a female birth certificate - but you could never have had periods and given birth. Yes, we know other women are infertile to but you are..?...?... Different.

I really do think the parallels with history are chilling.

Sarahconnor1 · 14/06/2018 19:04

Gibb perfectly demonstrates what this is all about and what the end games is and it's so hypocritical.

The feelings of transwomen (am I allowed to say that anymore?) are paramount. Over and over on this thread women have explained how this makes them feel, yet this counts for nothing.

This is madness.

AssassinatedBeauty · 14/06/2018 19:06

Using infertile women to try and make your point is very wrong.

Could you also answer my question about which rights a transwoman (with a GRC) doesn't have?

You won't be satisfied, @GibbertyFlibbert, unless all women are forced to say that they agree with your beliefs. Now that is frightening.

JuzzaL · 14/06/2018 19:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sarahconnor1 · 14/06/2018 19:09

You won't be satisfied,GibbertyFlibbert, unless all women areforcedto say that they agree with your beliefs. Now that is frightening.

This with bells on. And yes the parallels with history are terrifying.

spontaneousgiventime · 14/06/2018 19:12

We are all grown ups here (notice no natal sex MN?) yet we are being treated like naughty children. I will not tolerate that. MN is nothing but a money making machine. We click they go kerching. We need to find another place where we are treated as the adults we are. People here are educated, bright, articulate and questioning. Yet we are to be silenced on the alter of virtue signalling.

Watch the Kerching get less MN it will be to late to cry over spilt milk then. Those women (shit natal sex) will be long gone and you will look back and think about how badly you treated them.

pombear · 14/06/2018 19:12

Gibber SarahC

No.

And as we teach our children, No means No.

Not "well OK, 'cos you'll be sad if we say no".

Not "OK, I'm sure it probably won't hurt me or other females that much."'

Not "OK, I don't really believe what you're saying, but for the sake of your feelings we'll keep this lie between you and me"

No.

Noqont · 14/06/2018 19:12

their bodies don't meet your definition of an ideal woman.

The biological definition of adult woman is pretty clear. It doesn't include other groups that aren't women, obviously. By definition. Its all very well blurring the boundaries with gender and feelings, and I don't know, clearly some people feel more like a woman than their own biological sex. There's not even an issue with this. The only issue that arises is the conflict of interest of women's spaces and rights. I don't know why trans people can't celebrate their own bodies and selves in their own right. There's nothing wrong with being trans. Nothing at all. There is something very wrong with women's rights and safety being pushed aside though.

MsBeaujangles · 14/06/2018 19:13

If a poc group tell you some of the terms you are using is racist, you can bet they are.

If a muslim group tell you some of those terms are islamophobic they are.
If a Muslim group told Christians that they must not call themselves Christians, or describe themselves as Christian or view themselves as belonging to a discrete religion, people would not accept it.

Most people understand these dynamics and groups oppressed have a better understanding of their oppression than those outside the groups.

People are oppressed because of sex. Most people understand this and the dynamics involved.
People are oppressed because of being trans. Most people understand this and the dynamics involved.
Negating sex based oppression is a pernicious goal and prioritising the oppression of some over other, is unacceptable

Noqont · 14/06/2018 19:13

We need to find another place where we are treated as the adults we are

GC. Reddit.

BiologyIsReal · 14/06/2018 19:15

Biology is real... so every single trans person is an activist by your figures.

No, what I meant was 0.6% were trans and a tiny proportion of those are transactivists. Sorry, I wasn't clear.

Yes Gibberty. I can see parallels in history - but probably not the ones you were talking about.

I seemed to have touched the odd nerve or two here.

Shutting down debate, policing language is what dictatorial states do.

I don't often post on trans issues but the way this whole "nodebate" issue is playing out sends chills down the spine.

I'm 75 years old - I have seen it before and I will not be silenced on this any other issue I feel strongly about. I have never insulted a trans gender person, I am polite to them, I understand the issues that many have but I will not be silenced on women's rights. I did not live through the 60s and 70s feminist movements to be told what I should think or what I should say. (Again, this is not personal against those posters who disagree with me but about the whole "nodebate" movement).