New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

[Maryz]

According to KateMumsnet:

"We also thought it might be useful to clarify our thinking about general terms for trans people. Having said that TIM is not okay, it seems a bit illogical to allow other terms which hang upon natal sex."

Well that's that really, isn't it.

We are all being told to pretend that men have become women.

Am I going to be deleted/banned for this post?

So it doesn’t matter if I find NOT referring to my bio sex distressing then Mumsnet?

It appears only the distress of males, matters.

If I say I identify as male and think that women should still be able to refer to the biological reality of my body as female, would my concerns be taken seriously for the "identity" of male?

Or does that only work if I actually am male (like, literally male)... hmm, wonder why that could be...?

Right.
I'm back to females and males, women and men.

I won't mention trans, and they will need to infer from the very clear definitions I give the above terms which group they belong in.

I won't be referencing peoples identities in conversations that relate to material sex.

I can't distinguish linguistically between the two sex categories of trans people because naming their sex as a collective is now forbidden by MNHQ.

So.

Maybe every thread should start with the dictionary definitions of those four terms in the OP, and subsequent posts can just refer back to it.

eg I am a woman (see OP for definition) and I will not be categorised the same as men (see OP)

Actually I think my days here are numbered.
This is ridiculous.

This is utter bullshit and I'm probably going to leave Mumsnet now.

Oh and I'm also autistic.

This is utter bullshit and I'm probably going to leave Mumsnet now.

I honestly don't think anyone should leave.

If Mumsnet go full Twatter and start deleting women left, right and centre - well, it's going to go down just as well (not) as the Twatter deletions did with the wider world.

Oh I don't know. We're perfectly capable of talking about brave and beautiful people and ladies and conveying very well what we mean. We can discuss individuals too: Gorgeous, pouting PL, feisty brunette SF, fearless activist LM.

Of course if anyone objects to their given description we should drop it immediately in favour of something more complimentary.

Agree with Lang. And if all else fails we take to the streets.

I keep saying I've gotta go for a while and I do - however, I couldn't leave without saying 👏👏👏👏👏 to Lang for this:

So, how do I say I don't want [this group of people and we all know who I mean] to be administering smear tests to women without using either a term that refers to their male sex or a term that appropriates my female sex? Because I'm not talking about all trans people when I say that, am I? I'm talking about a subset of trans people [and we all know what subset that is].

See? Ridiculous.

BTW are we on Candid Camera??

Some who was born male and who now self-identifies as a women will still have a male birth certificate and is still a member of the male sex category under UK law. Legal rights under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment does NOT change someones legal sex class under the protected characteristic of sex. Someone legal sex classification can only be changed by obtaining a gender recognition certificate. Only 1% of people who identify as trans have one of these. So it is legal accurate to say that a transwoman is legally male. It is simple fact. You would be forcing me to lie if I said otherwise. fairplayforwomen.com/legal-basics/

Trans people find their bio sex distressing on some level - so let's not have a collective expression for them which insistently defines them by their bio sex.

And again, Kate has been misinformed. A tiny number of the UK's trans community suffer from gender dysphoria (that is the actual condition as defined in the DSM-V of mental health disorders) which brings with it distress at one's biological sex.

The vast majority of men who crossdress who are included under the trans umbrella and who are the leading force within the current trans activist scene DO NOT SUFFER FROM GENDER DYSPHORIA and therefore DO NOT SUFFER FROM DISTRESS AT THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX

As truscum et al have so beautifully explained here before, someone who suffers this condition finds the idea of using their male sexual organs (can't say penis anymore or can I?) abhorrent. The vast majority of transwomen in the UK however (that is 80 to 95% of them according to GIRES, the trans rights and education campaing group) are straight, full-bodied men who are sexually active using their male appendage for its intended purpose by having penetrative sex with women.

Those individuals do not find their biological sex distressing, they enjoy it very much indeed. Which is why they are:

a) insisting that you do not have to suffer from gender dysphoria to be trans*

and

b) consequently are pushing to demedicalise the whole issue, because being trans is not an illness or a disorder but a completely normal state of being, which needs to be protected in and of itself but which must not depend on having gender dysphoria and especially not on seeking treatment for it.

Some months age, during the time when I woke up to this issue, I made the exact same statement as Kate and was told in no uncertain terms that I was a terrible transphobe and a dinosaur and a TERF and should never ever dare talk to that group of people again because this view of trans people is too offensive* to be endured.

There are two legal sex categories in UK law. Everyone is either in the male sex category or the female sex category. Some of those people also self-identify as transgender. It's quite simple really. There are male people who identity as transgender and there are male people who don't identify as transgender. There are female people who identity as transgender and there are female people who don't identify as transgender.

I'm really at a loss as to what to do now. Do we need to start speaking in code? This is gutting and I expected better of Mumsnet.

I find it distressing to be told that people with XY chromosomes are women. I find it offensive to be told to redefine myself, and that mention of my biology is phobic. Of course I am a natal woman: it's the only kind there is.

"In most contexts, the discussion of an individuals' genitals is likely to be deleted."
Pity they didn't apply that logic back in the penisbeaker days.

"In most contexts, the discussion of an individuals' genitals is likely to be deleted."
Pity they didn't apply that logic back in the penisbeaker days.

I think some people won't be happy until we all dress like this and only come onto HandmaidsNet to talk about toilet brushes.

No, we will be only allowed to live until our reproductive system matures, then it will be transplanted into the 'superior' women. Soon robots will do everything. Men will be so conditioned by porn markers, all be will ok.

DoctorW, according to mnhq, people don't identify as trans and we are not allowed to suggest that they do. Here is the quote:

"Trans-identified' seems pretty goady - people generally don't identify as trans but as the opposite sex"

It's very confusing.

Language policing has been going on for quite a while and trans is just the latest issue.

For example, there are people who genuinely believed that marriage should be between a man and a woman. This invoked shrieks of "homophobe", "bigot" etc. No, they might have been, but they weren't necessarily. Maybe they just believed what they believed but felt shut down.

There are people who genuinely believed that the number of immigrants in the country was too high to be absorbed so fast into the culture. Cue shrieks of "racist", "bigot". No, they may have been but they weren't necessarily. Maybe they just believed what they believed but felt shut down.

There are other examples but when you shut down opinions with cheap jibes and knee jerk "bigot", "transphobe" etc. you are on the way to fascism.

I'm pretty old but I don't remember anything like this shut down of debate and policing of language before.

"There are other examples but when you shut down opinions with cheap jibes and knee jerk "bigot", "transphobe" etc. you are on the way to fascism"

I am struggling to understand that. Maybe you could explain?

Because for me what looks for ominous is when a group of women are told they can't have any of the rights of women, aren't even women, because their bodies don't confirm to some ideal version of women.

can you please explain to me what a transwoman is?

I'm more curious to know how we're supposed to define a woman on here. We're not supposed to use cis (which is bloody awful. Who the hell identifies as a sexual stereotype?) and we're not allowed to refer to natal sex.
We can use trans woman but we've got nothing left for women. Women being erased on a website for mothers. I've been on mumsnet for well over a decade now but it might be time to leave. This is horrifying.

George Orwell called; he'd like his plot back