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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

681 replies

Maryz · 14/06/2018 11:44

According to KateMumsnet:

"We also thought it might be useful to clarify our thinking about general terms for trans people. Having said that TIM is not okay, it seems a bit illogical to allow other terms which hang upon natal sex."

Well that's that really, isn't it.

We are all being told to pretend that men have become women.

Am I going to be deleted/banned for this post?

OP posts:
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GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 13:12

"Christians too."

Please don't present yourself as speaking for Christians in general because as a Christian I for one totally disagree with you.

R0wantrees · 14/06/2018 13:13

GibbertyFlibbert
Who on earth made you responsible for policing discussions?

LaContessaDiPlump · 14/06/2018 13:15

Oh, fuckballs :( thanks Maryz.

How about "So and so, who has a penis and states that they are a woman"? No identifying there.....

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 13:16

"Who on earth made you responsible for policing discussions?"

How on earth is me, as a Christian, saying that the poster doesn't speak for all Christians 'policing discussions'?

Sixty2018 · 14/06/2018 13:18

What a load of bloody nonsense.

Maryz · 14/06/2018 13:21

Nope Contessa, no reference to penis. From MNHQ:

"So surely we can say X, who has a penis"
"In most contexts, the discussion of an individuals' genitals is likely to be deleted."

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 14/06/2018 13:22

GibbertyFlibbert
I wasn't referring to this particular comment in isolation.

therealposieparker · 14/06/2018 13:25

@marys

What about person with a prostate?

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 14/06/2018 13:26

Gibb you have really got to try being less defensive. It can't be easy going through life taking offence at every perceived slight. It's not all about YOU, you know!

LaContessaDiPlump · 14/06/2018 13:26

Right.

In that case, I suggest playing the pronoun game; if a person's sex is not in dispute, call them her/him as appropriate. If it is, then use they/them.

Perhaps we can also ask if the individual has ever been known by another name.

CharlieParley · 14/06/2018 13:29

"Trans-identified' seems pretty goady - people generally don't identify as trans but as the opposite sex"

Respectfully, I disagree. I looked around trans rights and trans issue related websites yesterday and the overwhelming majority of people living and identifying as trans disagree with you as well. This is indeed how they identify themselves: as trans.

A large number of terms like trans-identified man or trans-identified male abounded in positive descriptions of such individuals by themselves as well as other authors on a large number of these websites. It is clearly NOT seen as a derogatory term within most parts of the trans community.

Indeed, the only places where I have found it discussed as a derogatory term were those dedicated to campaigning against TERFs. The logical conclusion therefore is that amongst the wider trans community* this is a neutral term to define an individual, but an extreme fringe group consisting mostly of males sees it as an insult.

Why is a community which serves the needs of 20 million users, the vast majority of whom are females, having its language policed to this degree for the sake of less than a few thousand, incredibly hostile, males?

I understand you are aiming for a policy that will save you from the trans activists and their complaints, but once our language is cleansed in accordance with your new rules, they will move onto the language we use to talk about the things that matter to us: pregnant woman, breastfeeding, nursing mother, female reproductive organs, women's troubles, female genital mutilation etc etc

Because that is exactly what is happening right now on Twitter and Facebook and IRL - the language women need to describe their uniquely female experiences is being attacked - this also includes trans inclusive groups that accept the claim that transwomen are actual women. Even the mere fact that we wish to discuss our uniquely female experiences is being attacked.

And for those groups btw, it always started with this kind of appeasement.

*this is how GIRES, a trans rights campaign group identifies the group of individuals who identify as the opposite sex - as trans and trans-identified (and loads of other trans people and groups, too).

ToeToToe · 14/06/2018 13:31

How on earth is me, as a Christian, saying that the poster doesn't speak for all Christians 'policing discussions'?

^ The issue with identity politics summed up in one post.

Why are MN banning the use of the term 'trans-identified male" - when one of their own registered members, who is trans, refers to himself (his choice of pronoun) as a "trans-identified male" ?

This is why we have to be very very careful about banning and censoring language. It's Authoritarian.

BeyondSceptical · 14/06/2018 13:31

There is only one way I will be happy to use "woman" (m) alongside woman (f), and that is if it is in those exact air-quotes. I might even italicise it too.

Not my chosen word, so it is clear that I am not tacitly approving its use by quoting it.

Maryz · 14/06/2018 13:32

I dunno posie.

Person with prostate vs person with ovaries perhaps. Or are ovaries genitals? Are genitals only external? Maybe a prostate is part of internal male genitalia and thus no longer allowed.

It's all very confusing.

We could, of course go back to man meaning adult human male and woman meaning adult human female [absofuckinglutelybefuddled]

How about "not a woman but wants to be a woman" (NAWBWTBAW)

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BeyondSceptical · 14/06/2018 13:34

"people generally don't identify as trans"

Ah yes, that explains why there wasn't a T tacked onto the end of LGB...
Doh.

BeyondSceptical · 14/06/2018 13:35

Narrow pelvis and widened pelvis wouldn't refer to genitals...?

Scrumplestiltskin · 14/06/2018 13:35

Afaik, prostate and ovaries are part of male and female reproductive systems, but not genitals.
I'm sure that wouldn't stop people complaining they are too personal or some silly shite though.

MsBeaujangles · 14/06/2018 13:36

If we can use the terms woman, man, transwoman and transman and male-sexed body and female-sexed body I think we should be able to discuss all angles of the debate

Terfulike · 14/06/2018 13:36

I am pretty disgusted that mn has basically sold women down the river. Has Justine actually read 1984? Seems not to have.

BeyondSceptical · 14/06/2018 13:36

Men, women, pink-brained people and blue-brained people?

Scrumplestiltskin · 14/06/2018 13:39

Love it, *beyondsceptical"
Or "gyno" and "andro"?

ImagineBeing · 14/06/2018 13:39

Please don't present yourself as speaking for Christians in general because as a Christian I for one totally disagree with you.

On what?

God is TRUTH? The commandments about lies?

FloralCup · 14/06/2018 13:43

Could we use - Person with prominent Adam's apple?

thewitchofwentworth · 14/06/2018 13:44

Appeasement won't work, the boundaries will always shift with these gender cultists.

OldmanOfTheWeb3 · 14/06/2018 13:45

"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
--George Orwell, Politics and the English Language

"Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."
--George Orwell, 1984

"It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words."
--George Orwell, 1984

"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."
--George Orwell, Preface to Animal Farm

"There is no swifter route to the corruption of thought than through the corruption of language"
--George Orwell, Politics and the English Language

This battle is not new. There have always been attempts to control thought by controlling words. To deny concepts by denying the words necessary to conceive them. And those attempts, today as yesterday, must be opposed. Orwell knew this well.

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