New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

[Maryz]

According to KateMumsnet:

"We also thought it might be useful to clarify our thinking about general terms for trans people. Having said that TIM is not okay, it seems a bit illogical to allow other terms which hang upon natal sex."

Well that's that really, isn't it.

We are all being told to pretend that men have become women.

Am I going to be deleted/banned for this post?

[R0wantrees]

Recent significant threads:

May 2nd 2018
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238869-Hi-Mumsnet-if-you-are-asking-feminist-women-to-consider-whether-Mumsnet-is-for-them-please-be-clear-that-the-space-we-made-here-is-for-all-of-us

April 15th 2018
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3222471-AIBU-to-be-extremely-proud-of-Justine-Roberts-Mumsnet-right-now

[ImagineBeing]

What do Janice Turner and James Kirkup say about this?

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

There's no such thing as a transgendered child - the child is either male or female

[ToeToToe]

And you know who you're doing this to protect? Men.
And who is being told to shut the fuck up? Women. The female kind.

Yes, exactly. People are trying to make it very very difficult for women to discuss women's issues. It's happening all over the place - MN is just the latest forum to fall.

The constant fog of "women can have penises too" - or "not everyone with a uterus is a woman" - this is gaslighting. This is telling us something -forcing something upon us - that is scientifically and biologically untrue.

[Hideandgo]

I agree Lizzie.

I don’t think people are being silenced at all. Just asked to not use deliberately offensive terms. But that ruins too many people’s ability to make constant backhanded jabs so they are not happy.

[NotTerfNorCis]

If we abide by these rules, we must be sure to report those offensive terms 'cis' and 'non-trans'. Women are women, transwomen are transwomen, the two are mutually exclusive... it's very clear.

[Spam88]

I read this as just terms similar to TIM which reject the gender the individual wishes to be identified as, but terms such as MTF and transwoman would be fine. It's perfectly possible to discuss these issues without choosing to use deliberately offensive language.

[Scrumplestiltskin]

@Hideandgo can you please explain to me what a transwoman is?

[Gileswithachainsaw]

Offensive terms?

If biological facts are offensive go set fires in Waterstones.

Go storm into a library and take the books off the bloody shelf.

Have the courage to stand up to women and men for what you believe in.

Bloody hiding behind anonymous forums trying to gaslight what is largely made up of women.

Cowardly.

We see you.

[BabyItsAWildWorld]

Justine Roberts said MN was a place of free speech.
I was emotional that day- free speech is under threat nearly every where and MN felt like it was taking a truly liberal stance and was prepared to bear the flack to defend free speech. It felt like an important thing, that would make MN historical and proud of the almost unique role it was taking.

They've thrown that in the bin.

They thought they could move to a free speech light position, but I presume are just beginning to see the mess that creates and the authoritarian position needed to enforce it.

[Maryz]

It's not deliberately offensive terms we are being told not to use. It's factually correct terms.

I find it offensive when people declare transwomen are women, or female, because they quite clearly, factually, scientifically are not. But I'm not allowed to object because I'm a lowly woman, and I'm not allowed to object to someone taking over and redefining words that describes me.

But if I refer to transwoman (in general) as male (again scientifically, factually and quite clearly correct) I'm told to stop as I might be upsetting people.

This is the feminism section. We should be allowed to speak about things that affect women and girls. We should be allowed to name facts, not to pussy-foot around the feelings of men.

[LaContessaDiPlump]

Are we allowed to say "So and so (who has a penis, and identifies as a transwoman) says that...."?

I'm not refering to sex at all in that statement, but it relays the facts which I and most people believe to be crucial.

[Sarahconnor1]

can you please explain to me what a transwoman is?

That could be impossible with these new rules.

There needs to be some more clarity here. When discussing general issues re women's rights is reference to natal sex allowed or not see scrumples example above

[terryleather]

It seemed pretty clear to me from the opening line of yesterdays statement that MNHQ are not going to back GC women's ability to discuss what we want to discuss using the language that we want to use. It looks like Justine was paying lip service to freedom of speech in her previous statement.

I said a while back that I think MNHQ find hosting the GC view on FWR a HUGE pain in the arse and would love to see the back of us.

I feared that MNHQ would try to engineer a situation where they come out of a free speech crackdown looking reasonable by having painted the GC view and how we express it as derogatory, agressive and rude. That means the bad girls get thrown off the bus and they have no one to blame but themselves and MN can polish their woke halo while still appearing to believe in free speech.

Everything it seems is now is transphobic if those-who-must-be-obeyed say so. This puts GC women in an impossible position when discussing the rights of women and girls and how to fight for them.

Under Birds Eye!

[GibbertyFlibbert]

"If a male being called a male is offensive to him, then I suggest he seeks counseling and stop navel gazing so much! We ALL get called things we don't like - what makes them so damn special?"

There is a big difference between occasionally dealing with someone saying something unpleasant and somewhere where you have to pick your way through ongoing unpleasantness. (I choose the word unpleasantness to avoid more loaded words.)

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

0.6 men trump 51% women - go figure the maths

[LangCleg]

What I said on the Site Stuff thread:

Go on then, Kate - give me such a term that does not involve coercing me to use terminology for the female sex.

There is no such term and gaslighting us into pretending that there is abusive of your gender critical users.

This is outrageous.

I am not using any terminology belonging to the female sex to refer to people who are not of the female sex. End of.

This is the gender critical position. You just banned it.

I'm so fucking angry that I'm going to have to step away from the keyboard. It's the bloody dishonesty of it all. Ban GC views. Support GC views. Pick a bloody side. But don't say we're not banning GC views and then ban all the language needed to articulate them.

Rage stroke cometh.

[LaContessaDiPlump]

A transwoman is an individual with a penis who states that they identify as a woman.

Is that ok? Can I say that?

It's like the f*ing Twilight Zone

[DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg]

when talking about trans issues we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

ROFL - so the really important bit, the bit that it all hinges on, the bit the equalities legislation, the GRA is clear about existing as a separate concept - that's the bit we're not supposed to talk about.

Right, well..

Thank God for that. Can't have women taking talking about womens issues as the law clearly says they can. Can't let women think that they can discuss the governing of the country.

Blessed be the fucking fruit.

[terryleather]

This is the gender critical position. You just banned it.

I'm so fucking angry that I'm going to have to step away from the keyboard. It's the bloody dishonesty of it all. Ban GC views. Support GC views. Pick a bloody side. But don't say we're not banning GC views and then ban all the language needed to articulate them.

Lang This This This!

[Noqont]

So I'm not allowed to say I'm a natal female right? Even though I am, like, a natal female? But I can't tell people that? Why's that then? Is my natal female status shameful? A secret? Does it upset other people that I was born a natal female? What on earth should I be calling myself then in order to please other people? As it clearly it doesn't matter what I, as a natal female, wants to identify myself as.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

So is Miranda’s own thread, ‘’Miranda Yardley is a man’’, currently in FWR going to have to be deleted then?

[birdbandit]

I'm fairly certain that something could be found on every thread, conception, relationships, pregnancy etc, which could be considered transphobic. Talk which may centre the individual who has not had a transition experience (sorry for the weird speak, I'm trying to avoid the gulag) threads where individuals are talking, without considering how their heteronormative experiences might trigger someone else.

It would be a total pain, and I would feel sorry for the mods, if folk were to be pedantic, and report everything. But rules are rules I guess.

[DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg]

somewhere where you have to pick your way through ongoing unpleasantness. (I choose the word unpleasantness to avoid more loaded words.)

Then don't come here. Just like I don't frequent the trans boards on reddit because of the poisonous opinions of women, or the MRA boards, because what I would read there would make me feel disgust towards the male half of humanity.

Or perhaps like i don't go on the lesbian boards, because I'm not a lesbian, or the German boards because I'm not German.