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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are the public still not engaged with the gender debate?

86 replies

MillyTheKid · 14/06/2018 10:55

Why do you think people beyond the TRA and feminist bubble are not talking about gender issues? It's regularly been in the papers, on television and is always on social media and yet it seems that the average person in the street is still not engaged with the topic.

OP posts:
ImagineBeing · 14/06/2018 11:05

Overheard conversation between two year 8 girls.

"I feel so sorry for trans women, did you know thousands of them are killed every year?"

"No, that's terrified, poor things"

Lies are spread that gain sympathy. Nobody is correcting the lies.

Southfields · 14/06/2018 11:06

People "in the street" are either male or female.

The men aren't engaged because it doesn't affect them.

The women aren't engaged because they think the issue is a bunch of rabid feminists picking on a vulnerable minority for no reason and being horrible to them. They can't see why a man who has changed sex can't use the ladies'.

ImagineBeing · 14/06/2018 11:07

Why are the Samaritans silent in all of this?

Kimlek · 14/06/2018 11:08

Exactly what southfields says.

CaptainKirkssparetupee · 14/06/2018 11:09

99% of people just don't care as it's a very small minority?

ImagineBeing · 14/06/2018 11:11

How much would publishing some FB and newspaper adverts, with facts such as links to the Samaritans, cost?

SuitedandBooted · 14/06/2018 11:12

The level of understanding is very poor.
It's conflated with gay rights, and most people think that Trans Gender means surgery, not just saying "Well, I'm a woman inside".

Southfields · 14/06/2018 11:12

OTOH, I can peak trans any man or woman in under 3 minutes.

I know: I do it daily.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 14/06/2018 11:13

They don't realise the potential impact, they don't think it'll affect them, they don't think it'll ever happen, at a guess.

SeahorsesAREhorses · 14/06/2018 11:13

The misinformation out there is terrible. People believe hundreds o trans people are killed each year, nope, that would be women.

Kids regularly tell me that if you like pink your a girl, used to be it's a girl's colour, now liking pink makes you a girl.

Kids seem to have received the message that sex is optional.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 14/06/2018 11:14

Forgot to add: many people have been brought up to be tolerant and accepting, so criticising this can be seen to be intolerant and phobic.

ImagineBeing · 14/06/2018 11:19

DfE fund political pressure groups, schools buy in training from political pressure groups, schools train children.

GardenGeek · 14/06/2018 11:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Petalflowers · 14/06/2018 11:30

Because people are either not interested, or not aware of the issues.

A lot of people think that it’s someone else’s problem, or doesn’t affect them. They are not aware that the whole trans issue has moved on. Out of curiosity, I asked if anyone in my office had heard of ‘cis’ or ‘mx’ and no one was aware of this.

If you don’t read papers, who,subscribe to any of the relevant social media sites, and don’t watch of the trans programmes, you could easily bypass the whole issues.

If it wasn’t for Mumsnet, i wouldn’t be so aware of the issues.

Floeer · 14/06/2018 11:34

I think its because many who have heard/read a bit about the debate aren't sure exactly what this debate is actually about or what either side are trying to achieve. That coupled with Trans being under the LGB umbrella makes some people wary of saying the wrong thing or just assume transpeople should be welcome and that's the end of the discussion.

ImagineBeing · 14/06/2018 11:34

I don't watch the trans programming on TV. I have no interest in medical or surgical TV. I don't watch much TV that 'educates' the public on ' poor me' stories or Jeremy Kyle high drama stuff.

PamsterWheel · 14/06/2018 11:39

What do you say Southfields?

TeenTimesTwo · 14/06/2018 11:42

Because people think it's about the 'old fashioned transsexuals' which traditional no one has any problem with.

Because there hear stuff about e.g. girl guides and think 'that will never happen' because they don't realise it is happening.

Because over the last X years the word sex has slowly been replaced by gender so now no one even knows what is being talked about.

Because people like to think they are on the side of minority rights because giving minorities rights doesn't usually impact anyone else, but now the vocal activists are asking for things that erodes the safety and rights of women and girls and people don't realise.

Because people have confidence that the decision makers will do the right thing when statements obviously against biology are being declared, and they don't realise that these decision makers have been infiltrated too and/or are too afraid to be called phobic to stand up for biology and women.

Because until something happens that is so blatant it can't be ignored people will stay quiet for fear of being called a bigot, but by then it will be too late.

RatRolyPoly · 14/06/2018 11:44

OTOH, I can peak trans any man or woman in under 3 minutes.

Ooh, ooh, do me!

Some people are engaged and simply hold differing opinions.

prunemerealgood · 14/06/2018 11:44

I personally don't engage because:-

I don't have a problem with trans people, and I'm going back decades here so it has none of the novelty that the internet has brought it for me.

I am not 100% on board with trans women being in all of women's safe spaces but having a nuanced debate about this is obviously impossible, so I keep my views to myself.

I dislike intensely the quality of engagement that the internet brings. Most people are just getting on with being fine with things, actually. Now it seems we have to perform all sorts of things related to other people's business and I really just won't. Especially not as the likelihood is of somebody "calling me out" for not putting something exactly the right way. I would vote the right way if asked, donate, protest, I'd encourage a child of mine if need be - but I'm not getting involved with the sort of discourse I see on the internet.

Undercoverswede · 14/06/2018 11:51

Apologies; long post. I have been thinking about this a lot. I would say there are different reasons, depending on audience.

The victim narrative, drawing on genuinely distressing stats from South America, has been coopted in the U.K. and USA. People don't check stats, as a rule.

Also, the general public has been led to believe that there genuinely is a 'hate mob' who oppose the human rights of transpeople. The ones I have discussed the matter with genuinely have no idea that the 'hate speech' (from what I have been able to see from my admittedly limited vantage point) consists mainly of disagreement with the position that pre-op transwomen people are, in the ontological sense, female based on their say-so. Once people understand that, they don't understand why this would ever be seen as 'hate speech'. They are incredulous, and find it hard to believe that's all there is.

Those who do know about this and still don't see why there may be resistance to self-ID generally don't realise that it's a matter of conflicting rights under law.

Part of the problem is that trans activist are operating in quite a strategic manner, e.g. the Equality Act does allow for exceptions on a case-by-case basis for putting protection of gender ID at the same level as sex, which some quite reasonable legal people point to, without realising that there has been a grassroot-level campaign to get individual councils to remove this exception by switching 'sex' for 'gender' in local regs. The two campaigns have seemingly taken place in tandem, but on different levels. One would have to engage closer than most without 'skin in the game' tend to do to see the connection.

Re. the 'hate speech' argument, the TRA discourse that cannot possibly be filed under the 'victim' category, e.g. the calls for rape, assault or even murder of so-called 'T*RFs', does not take place in full view, but is directed at individuals on social media or circulates in LGBT+ or feminist media sources. The general public simply don't see it. Those who do are horrified.

Basically, mosr people are quite nice, and are willing to believe a victim narrative and give people the benefit of the doubt.

Is there more scepticism towards women than men, i.e. is there a sense of underlying misogyny? Possibly. Arguably, someone who subscribes to the feminine norm - 'feminine' in the cosmetically aspirational way, and tending towards the submissive, long-suffering victim role, will be seen in a kinder light than the stereotypical 'angry woman' (especially if they can be imagined as 'middle aged', 'old', 'ugly', 'hairy-legged' and so forth - whether that is the case or not). It is very easy to dismiss women as 'screeching harridans' - again, whether this is the case or not.

Let's also not forget that the public generally also relates differently to suffering or victimhood that is common, seen as depressingly inevitable, and beyond what is 'solvable' with some kind of 'fix', compared with something that has news value, and seen as 'fixable'. An element of titillation also helps. The interests of vulnerable women in refuges or prisons will have a hard time 'winning' over reasonably glamorous transwomen in the media. It is depressing to think about the former; fun and cheering to think about furthering the rights of the latter. We tend to avoid engaging with genuinely difficult problems to 'solve', like domestic abuse.

Funding is possibly also a factor. The lesbian community, who currently seem to be in receipt of the sticky end of this, receive something in the order of £4m per annum, according the figures I saw. The corresponding number for transpeople is £22m.

All these things likely matter, and a coherent response hinges on joining the dots. This takes interest and engagement, as well as media exposure.

rainingcatsanddog · 14/06/2018 12:00

In my experience, very few people have heard or seen what TRA say about everybody else. This hate is directed at women rather than men. I think if it was at least 50/50 men would call them out on this and not accept terms like ladyd*ck.

Sixty2018 · 14/06/2018 12:06

Because I’m heartily sick fed up hearing about it. The way the people are trying to get the message across is off putting. It alienates people. It makes me want to stick my fingers in my ears and head for the hills screaming.

You catch more flies with cider than vinegar.

Sixty2018 · 14/06/2018 12:09

I dislike intensely the quality of engagement that the internet brings. Most people are just getting on with being fine with things, actually. Now it seems we have to perform all sorts of things related to other people's business and I really just won't. Especially not as the likelihood is of somebody "calling me out" for not putting something exactly the right way. I would vote the right way if asked, donate, protest, I'd encourage a child of mine if need be - but I'm not getting involved with the sort of discourse I see on the internet

I wouldn’t be protesting or donating due to some of the people who are involved in the movement. But yes to everything else you said.

BellaJessica · 14/06/2018 12:14

I watched a documentary the other night. Stacey dooley investigated the abuse of women and girls around the world where they were sold as sex slaves. The programme bothered me for many reasons but stacey dooley really annoyed me.
When the police in the phillipenes (I think it was) found a pimp and knew he was selling three girls one a child, the police reffered to the pimp as a "female impersonator" and made it clear he was a man. Stacey constantly refered to the pimp as "she" and "her" even when the police were referring to him as "him" and "he". I fidnt understand why stacey dooley felt a pimp selling a child for sex' feelings mattered. It was so strange and sad.

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