White Men are the Most Discriminated Against Demographic

[BoodeBeep]

My boyfriend has just said this to me. His reasons were women and ethnic minorities get schemes/help/AWS etc. I asked why exactly he thinks they have them, who they were trying to equal women up to etc. He said we should have a meritocracy and I agreed but explained we haven't ever ever had that and not all men are there on merit. I asked if he thought the reason there wasn't 50/50 represention was because women just weren't up to it and he said of course not but what other explanation is there?

I left it because there is just no getting through the complete arrogant certainty that he is right despite having done zero reading around the subject, having zero experience of being a woman/ethnic minority and seeing and hearing the experiences me and many other women have.

It's so frustrating. He's generally great but blind on this issue and obviously unwilling to think about it in any depth beyond how it may affect him should he fall victim to the discrimination of an all women shortlist.

Do men ever really get it?

Don’t conflate resentment at feminism with resentment at women. Honestly men can’t win for losing. I don’t think sexism is entirely a resolved issue in our society, but I don’t think things like all women shortlist’s are the answer either.

Way too much of feminism begs the question like the very concept of patriarchy is presented as a premise rather than a conclusion.

OP both you and your partner sound bloody marvellous to be honest. You obviously care deeply for one another, and it’s really good you can communicate especially on areas you disagree. I wouldn’t not bring these things up, but you both must realise your not necessarily going to come away agreeing.

Why the fuck do we have so many obvious goady trolls lately?

Why don't they make kitchen stools specifically for tall people? Just because they can already reach the top shelf doesn't mean they don't deserve their own height boosting devices too!

Invasion, Ardant. Multiple different groups of people trying to shut this forum down at the moment.

Men will put themselves and male issues first, just as women do. You all have very little to say about male suicide and other issues facing men. It's the same for men and women's issues. The reality is and I know people don't want to admit it, is most male feminists only claim to be so to please feminist partners (or to get one)

What does Empowered even fucking mean anymore?

"
Maybe whats really meant is stright/able-bodied/middle class/white men are the only ones not getting assistance (which isnt true either; I think these helping hands are not that prolific) which just makes me shout:

YES, BECAUSE THEY DON'T FUCKING NEED THEM!!!!!"

Are you ok at letting individuals slip through the cracks because the collective is doing (in your opinion) ok?

For instance: A typical state college has after school workshops to help bright kids apply to Oxbridge, but it's only open to girls and minority students. Is that ok for you?

What about scholarships? Should scholarships be focused on certain groups or should they take into account each individuals circumstances regardless of group membership?

What about workshops and support for small business owners? White men can't apply - even the guy with two kids to feed who came from a working class broken home?

What does Empowered even fucking mean anymore?

Empowerment is the illusion of the thing marketed to women to discourage them from seeking power, the thing itself.

Help is offered to individuals FMS

And your for instances are made up. And designed to make me look like I want men to suffer. Which I obviously don't.

I thought empowerment meant feeling secure and strong in your convictions to live your principles, not necessarily being given power. Whatever it is I clearly don't have it. I'm just a blind spineless troll with a twat idiot partner letting all women down while simultaneously discriminating against men and sabotaging my relationship... according to this thread.

A typical state college has after school workshops to help bright kids apply to Oxbridge, but it's only open to girls and minority students. Is that ok for you
It's ok for me. Because boys are known to dominate in academic sessions and girls to feel inferior when they are in a mixed group, resulting in girls dropping out of/not taking up those opportunities if boys are also there.

If there is a problem with girls accessing certain opportunities (e.g. studying computer science at oxford) then I don't see any issues with setting up a targeted intervention to deal with that.

I really dont get why men find just the idea of other people getting some assistance so abhorrent. It's like some weird dog in the manger thing.

@QuentinSummers "It's ok for me. Because boys are known to dominate in academic sessions and girls to feel inferior when they are in a mixed group, resulting in girls dropping out of/not taking up those opportunities if boys are also there."

Well that clearly isn't having an impact on University admissions - more girls go to university than boys and white working class boys are the group least likely to to university.

I would be a bit more careful to make sure you have all the facts before denying certain groups certain opportunities.

The problem with ideology based identity politics clearly exposed with one post.

LOL

The scenario would never happen the way you describe. There would be sessions to help all students likely to apply to Oxbridge. There may also be additional sessions for those identified as needing more help, which might be girls, or minority ethnic children or white working class boys.

@boodebeep "And your for instances are made up. And designed to make me look like I want men to suffer. Which I obviously don't. "

Yes, I was using hypothetical examples of "positive action" in favour of groups to illustrate that positive action by its very nature excludes individual members of other groups and may not always lead to a fair outcome.

I'm fairly sure Google run coding boot camps and related camps for girls/minorities.

Is it fair that a white child/teenager with trailer park parents who can't afford a computer gets excluded from that on the basis of his race/sex?

I know that.
But more boys than girls work in lucrative forward looking industries like computing and technology.

The gender pay gap remains and women don't get to more senior levels in most industries in the same proportions as men (see slightlys link upthread)

So as a class, white boys will do better in life despite girls having a better academic record.

If specific interventions are targeted at areas where women are clearly underepresented I think that's a good thing.

And before you start going on about nursing and teaching 1) there are initiatives to get more men into these careers 2) the men that are there are more likely to achieve senior positions. So it's not comparable.

What about the over 25s (men or women) or thereabouts? The number of things you get excluded from that could help after your more youthful years beggars belief. I also see disabled people getting higher benefits than me, better make it up through the capabilities I wouldn't have if I was one.

Your 'friend' sounds an entitled idiot to me.

@QuentinSummers "So as a class, white boys will do better in life despite girls having a better academic record."

you are spectacularly missing the point - that using the "success" of the group to deny individual members of that group from certain opportunities is WRONG and can lead to unfair outcomes

" like computing and technology. "

I also find it amusing that you're now focusing my "Oxbridge" example onto certain subjects - thus changing the whole point of the example. I've said nothing about computing and technology.

The point is whether it's fair to deny poor white state school boys from workshops intended to improve their chances of getting into Oxbridge just because plenty of rich white boys called Boris, Dave and Gideon get in fine and do well in life?

"And before you start going on about nursing and teaching 1) there are initiatives to get more men into these careers "

Yep, and guess what happens in Scandinavia when they tried that? The gender gap in STEM and Nursing got BIGGER not BETTER. As did personality differences between men and women

" 2) the men that are there are more likely to achieve senior positions"

Not sure that's entirely true. In the recent pay gap data the nursery chain "Yellow Dot" had a pay gap in favour of women. I assume thats because more women go into childcare, thus statistically there is a higher probability of women getting promoted ahead of men - a bigger candidate pool of women makes it more likely.

The scenario you describe, @fmsfms, would never happen. All children would be invited to workshops. There may be additional workshops to target groups that the school has identified as likely to need additional support. This may well include white working class boys if the school demographic is relevant and those children are underperforming at that school.

By talking about the very specific examples that affect white men you obfuscate the much bigger problem that women and BAME people are routinely at a disadvantage in most areas of life.
The point of feminism is to help women achieve their potential free from these systemic disadvantages.
I think that's the same motivation for BAME campaigners too.

There is nothing stopping you setting up a programme for white working class boys, but coming onto a feminist board and telling us to focus on the men isn't going to help them. So you are putting your energy in the wrong place (unless your concern is more about shutting women up than helping disadvantaged boys, of course).

Are you just copy/pasting replies to certain scenarios whilst ignoring others?

Just checked and Google offer free coding classes for women and minorities

Is it fair that a white boy from a trailer park with parents that can't afford a computer and raised in an environment that doesn't promote academic success, is denied access to those classes purely on the basis of his group identity just because white men are over-represented at Google?

"The point of feminism is to help women achieve their potential free from these systemic disadvantages."

We're actually discussing positive action and whether white men are discriminated against as per the OP

"The point of feminism is to help women achieve their potential free from these systemic disadvantages."

Well I continually get told "but feminism just means equality!!!1111"

Promoting positive action that excludes certain groups doesn't sound very equal to me.

Regardless, I think you're too ideologically entrenched to have a sensible discussion about the topic

But why argue against hypothetical situations, FMS? Pointless.

Give real examples of schemes and the boys/Men who you believe have missed out. I honestly am not aware of any schemes personally bar AWS in politics, which is what started my disagreement with dp.

Just because extreme and complete positive action in every single sphere isn't right doesn't mean it's a trash concept.

Promoting positive action that excludes certain groups doesn't sound very equal to me.

It does if those certain groups already have an advantage. The question is rather one of when to stop. Feminists believe that action is still needed. Anti-Fems believe it's gone too far.

But positive discrimination and an overall aim of equality are certainly not mutually exclusive.

Lots of places give free coding classes, available to all. I am doing one now. Not female specific.

Not sure any of them give you a free computer, though so your hypothetical trailer park kid wouldn't be able to benefit. Or his sister. They may be entitled to other help for other disadvantages though. I don't know.

"Just checked and Google offer free coding classes for women and minorities "

Posted a few mins ago @boodebeep

" So you are putting your energy in the wrong place (unless your concern is more about shutting women up than helping disadvantaged boys, of course)."

It's funny how presenting an alternative viewpoint and trying to illustrate how focusing on the perceived privilege of the "group" sacrifices the "individual" is then misrepresented as trying to "shut up women"

I guess when you can't address my concerns it's easier to invent an ulterior motive @QuentinSummers

"Promoting positive action that excludes certain groups doesn't sound very equal to me.

It does if those certain groups already have an advantage"

@IfyouseeRitaMoreno

As I have continually said throughout this thread - not every individual member of that group has the advantages you think they do.

I'll ask again, are you ok with sacrificing/denying opportunities to the poorest members of that group because the people of the top have (in your opinion) more privilege and opportunity than other groups?

It's a straight question but one that people continually avoid,. preferring to say "that would never happen!" instead