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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Why is misgendering a big deal?

712 replies

FortunateCookie · 11/06/2018 10:30

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

OP posts:
loveyouradvice · 11/06/2018 13:38

Wake up. It's a pivotal issue because the sooner it's made socially unacceptable to talk about someone's birth sex all the legitimate concerns about women's rights and protection against male violence are eradicated simply through language being quite literally neutered

Just read this on another thread... 100% agree... it is a terrifyingly slippery slope and like many others I would politely use one to one, and now won't do so ... with just a few exceptions for people I really like, and are doing their best to blend in without shrieking their demands from the rooftops... Ok, I know illogical.

BarrackerBarmer · 11/06/2018 13:42

GibbertyFlibbert

"Thought experiment. Tomorrow we pass a law erasing all references to sex. No more men and women. No more male and female. Just people. I predict that the ones who deliberately mis-gender and mis-sex women with a trans history would be the first to object. Definitely double standards at work."

You are so confused. You contradict yourself within the same sentence. You demonstrate that you haven't actually comprehended your opponent's position.

It's like debating a toddler.

TERFragetteCity · 11/06/2018 13:43

Thought experiment. Tomorrow we pass a law erasing all references to sex. No more men and women. No more male and female. Just people. I predict that the ones who deliberately mis-gender and mis-sex women with a trans history would be the first to object. Definitely double standards at work.

How do you feel about Shon Faye wanting you to 'enjoy your erasure'?

As they mean you too.

rosesandflowers · 11/06/2018 13:43

The things people seem to be referring to as gender nowadays, are simply aspects of their personality, which are unique to all of us, and should not be taken into account when making laws.

This is actually a very common misunderstanding, or, in the case of some, a convenient myth.

Gender identity has nothing to do with personality, stereotypes etc. If you don't like high heels, it doesn't make you less of a woman. If a trans man dislikes high heels, it doesn't make him less trans.

rosesandflowers · 11/06/2018 13:44

*more trans, sorry.

I changed it from "trans woman" to "trans man" and didn't change the second part, sorry Grin

C8H10N4O2 · 11/06/2018 13:44

if a woman kept her surname on marriage but someone insisted on calling them by their husbands name that would be seen as rude, nasty and probably mysoginistic. it would be seen as devaluing the woman sense of self.

This has happened to me all my married life, sometimes accidentally because of the sexist assumptions in society, sometimes deliberately calling me "Mrs HisInitial HisSurname" because I don't conform to their insistence that my identity is a subset of his.

It is misogynistic, its also a recurring thread on this site. On each and every thread there is substantial number of posters telling people like me that I need to get over myself, that I'm making something out of nothing, that Mrs hisname is the correct form of address, that legally my name changed when I married (it didn't).

bqhl · 11/06/2018 13:44

I'm still trying to work out how someone "bleeding" would be sent to a psychiatrist.

Do you mean upset at having a period?

bqhl · 11/06/2018 13:45

Or not having a period even.

BarrackerBarmer · 11/06/2018 13:45

What
Is
Gender
?

rosesandflowers · 11/06/2018 13:46

No one is saying that roseandflowers, apart from you. Gender identity is invisible, gender expression isn't.

Agreed. So what exactly are you disagreeing with?

Picassospaintbrush · 11/06/2018 13:47

Yes roseandflowers it's such convoluted ideology that even self proclaiming experts like yourself can't keep on track.

terfinginthevoid · 11/06/2018 13:48

GibbertyFlibbert, damn right I would object. That is exactly what I am afraid the translobby are trying to achieve.

There are two sexes, and, due to our different biology and the way men treat us because of our biology, women as a sex class need certain protections in law.

FortunateCookie · 11/06/2018 13:48

I’ve got another question.

If not affirming someone’s gender identity leads from upset all the way up to mental health problems and possible suicide, should it not be flagged as a powerful motivating factor when transwomen seek to enter sex segregated spaces and positions?

Eg I believe there was a case of a woman who requested a female nurse to carry out her smear and a transwoman came to do it.

If not affirming a chosen gender identity is so damaging, should we not consider the effect this refusal to validate would have on the trans nurse?

And therefore, should we not also question the fact that this driving motivation to be seen as women may be behind a transwomen wanting to perform a smear test on a woman who has requested a female?

Is it possible to be honest that the motivation is actually affirmation, which, if withheld, can cause such distress?

OP posts:
BarrackerBarmer · 11/06/2018 13:49

This reply has been deleted

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GibbertyFlibbert · 11/06/2018 13:51

"I'm still trying to work out how someone "bleeding" would be sent to a psychiatrist."

Once we pointed out to the hospital that it was unlawful discrimination she was invited back to clinic to see a different doctor. I really don't think people understand how much discrimination trans people face doing things that most people take for granted.

rosesandflowers · 11/06/2018 13:51

*What
Is
Gender
?

A social construct. In most cultures, historically and currently it is associated with a particular sex, with those that don't conform given a label when the problem arises and then oppressed

Other cultures have or have had a variety of genders to encompass everybody's identity, and these tend to be more equal.

There are no real definers of gender despite the stereotypes associated with the man/woman binary. In modern culture and in many ancient ones, atypical genders had stereotypes connoted to them too.

DailyMailClickbait · 11/06/2018 13:55

The linguistic acrobatics that are necessary to conform to the "groupthink" required for self-identification, never fail to astound me. The accusations of "literal violence" when people question and refuse to accept the garbled and reversed standards to which we are supposed to aspire.

There was an interesting thread recently from a secondary school teacher about the curriculum for teaching biology, chromosomes and the reproductive system. Yet we are simultaneously seeing the rise of organisations accessing schools and public authorities in order to "train" them on trans-rights - including ideology that females can have penises and males can have vaginas. No wonder children are confused.

I am frequently reminded of the Orwellian parallels; 4 legs good/2 legs bad, yet look at the pigs at the end of the book...

rosesandflowers · 11/06/2018 13:55

it's such convoluted ideology that even self proclaiming experts like yourself can't keep on track.

It's fairly complex, but honestly there's not that much to "keep track" of.

There's some history - which isn't really that difficult. There are a lot of gender identities - but again, not particularly difficult to learn. And there's no harm in asking someone politely to explain if you don't know or understand.

ScienceIsTruth · 11/06/2018 13:55

@rosesandflowers, gibberish just about sums your posts up.

The definition of woman is adult human female. It is a biological term and has nothing to do with the make-believe that is gender, which is complete bollocks.

The only reason that I know I'm a woman is because I fit the definition of one, ie, adult human female, which is defined as someone who is "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes".

What makes me, me, are my experiences and personality.

terfinginthevoid · 11/06/2018 13:56

If not affirming someone’s gender identity leads from upset all the way up to mental health problems and possible suicide, should it not be flagged as a powerful motivating factor when transwomen seek to enter sex segregated spaces and positions?

I think it is the prime motivating factor for these transwomen. That's why they're not happy with third spaces for transwomen as a solution to issues with refuges, prisons, changing rooms or toilets. Because they don't 'just want to pee' or whatever, they want validation.

And I think its a very good reason why transwomen shouldn't be training to do cervical smears in the first place. Most male GPs don't do smears anymore, because they know most patients want a woman to do it. There are plenty of other useful things a transwoman nurse could be doing, so why would they choose to train to do smears, if not to seek validation?

rosesandflowers · 11/06/2018 14:01

No wonder children are confused.

My experience with children and gender identity is that the younger they are, the less confusing it is.

e.g. DD1 found out about being trans at 12. Naively we'd never talked about it with her until one of her friends came out at school. She found the concept fairly confusing and had to adjust to her friends pronouns/name. Now she's absolutely fine with it (sixteen) and whines if DH ever refers to her "non-woke" phase!

DD2 found out in late Reception because her friends older sister is a trans boy. Absolutely no problems at all. Mentioned it to me matter of factly between their new table seatings and the game they'd played that day.

From what I've heard it's very similar whenever young children encounter it. I think it's a lot easier to get when you're a child.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 11/06/2018 14:01

I can see why debate gets so heated.

If I am understanding correctly:

  • One group thinks that pronouns refer to someone's gender. The other group believe that they refer to someone's sex as they do when talking about other animals
  • one group thinks man/woman refers to someone's gender. The other group and the dictionary believe that it refers to someone's sex

I think this whole thing illustrates why clear definitions are essential.

So, if 'woman' and 'she' was to refer to gender identity, what do I use as an XX person with no gender identity?

DailyMailClickbait · 11/06/2018 14:02

I think it is the prime motivating factor for these transwomen. That's why they're not happy with third spaces for transwomen as a solution to issues with refuges, prisons, changing rooms or toilets. Because they don't 'just want to pee' or whatever, they want validation.

Agree.

Picassospaintbrush · 11/06/2018 14:02

I really don't think anyone wants a lecture with the smattering of gender studies you have picked up roseandflowers.

Op, yes clearly as flibgib is explaining the motivation is affirmation.
Or in the case of AGP the motivation is sexual gratification.

We don't have to participate in either. It's not rude or criminal to withhold participation in either.

FermatsTheorem · 11/06/2018 14:03

rosesandflowers: It's a modern translation to describe one of the original genders of ancient Native Americans. Two genders has always been a ridiculously simple construct and so the Native Americans had more - 7, I believe, though I might be wrong. Unlike most ancient societies, which almost always had terms for genderfluidity, they were held in great esteem and seen as very special by the Native American people.

So you're not just ignorant about modern identities - but of history and other culture! wink Good going.

Let's have a think about this one. One can take two perspectives on a given culture's belief system - a kind of "internal one" (what do they say about their own beliefs) and an "external one" (what would an anthropologist/sociologist say about the work this particular belief system is doing in providing a kind of social glue to keep that society together and working smoothly). You're adopting an internal viewpoint - "they say this about themselves and who am I to criticise", whereas one can equally say "they say this about themselves, and I don't share that belief set, but it's interesting to ask where it comes from and why."

I've had many a chat with a friend who's a professor of anthropology about this one. She says that gender roles (old style social sciences meaning of gender as "set of behaviours, clothing, occupations, etc. deemed by a society to be appropriate to one biological sex or the other") are ubiquitous. But they are interesting. They can be either variable across cultures (Medieval Iceland: weaving is a woman's job; Medieval England: weaving is a man's job), or fairly constant. Where they are fairly constant, there's also usually a fairly obvious reason rooted in biological function. So across almost all cultures, looking after small children falls to women, because only women lactate. Handling heavy draft animals, big game hunting (not small game - both sexes typically do this to a lesser or greater degree), being a warrior fall to men because they are physically bigger, stronger and faster on average.

Next comes the society's attitude to transgressing gender roles (in this old-school social sciences sense of "roles attributed by society to one sex or the other"). Some are what she calls "flexible" (she is very insistent that fluid is the wrong word), whereas other societies are "rigid" and have strong sanctions against transgressing gender roles. I guess it's this situation: a widow needs her fields ploughed, borrows her neighbour's ox, and does it herself. Is the reaction "She's a bit of an odd-ball, but needs must I suppose" or is it "unnatural woman, burn the witch"?

Now for where this intersects with trans issues. Third genders/two spirit people/allowed cross dressing like Bacha Posh or Sworn Virgins are much more common as a sociological phenomenon in societies with a rigid attitude to gender boundaries. What they seem to do is provide a safety valve for people who just don't fit. Whereas a society with a flexible attitude to gender can say "well, Freda's just a bit odd, but it's not really doing anyone any harm", a rigid society says "Freda can only do this if she becomes Fred."

So for an anthropologist, the observation that some (not all by any means) Native American cultures have Two Spirit people isn't evidence that there really are people out there with two spirits, it's simply evidence that this is a belief set which works for this society in terms of keeping things ticking over and allowing for fairly rigid gender (sex-role meaning of gender) boundaries to be maintained while giving an escape route to the people really made unhappy by these roles.

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