Male colleague - views on changing name

[Sailinghappy]

Just interested in what people think about this scenario.

Yesterday my male colleague (totally randomly) asked me if my surname was on my birth certificate. I said no, it's my surname through marriage. He openly laughed and said he was disappointed in me for taking my husband's surname at marriage. He said he thought he was "a better feminist" than me and that taking my husband's name is sexist. I told him I certainly am feminist and that I support women's choices, to do whatever they like. I wasn't forced to take his name, it was my decision and I'm happy with it!!

Do other people agree with my colleague or is he in the minority?

I’m specifically talking about the women who have given it some thought rather than the majority of people generally who don’t think about it and just follow cultural traditions.

I’m not expecting many of those women to be particularly bothered by feminists on feminism chat saying their choice is ‘not feminist’ or ‘anti feminist’

I think the ‘objectively feminist choice’rs are speaking to feminists particularly too. They are trying to state that there is a ‘feminist choice’ and that for feminists that choice is keeping a birth surname...

I am pretty at those people who don’t appear to hold themselves to those same standards re getting married in the first place, or if they do, skimming over the fact that they are in that position re which choice to make only because of making the ‘objectively unfeminist’ choice to marry.

I don’t really believe any of these individual choices should be judged using these categories in the first place but I do find it strange that there has been no examination of personal choices re marriage (or having children TBH) according to the rules of ‘objectively feminist’ but there has been lots of fussing about names on marriage.

So , are you saying there is no such thing as an objectively feminist or an objectively non feminist choice?

It isn't an either or question so it can't have an either or answer except for the most basic fundamentals.

Really? I think there are a lot of fundamentally non feminist choices. I’ve made plenty of them in my time.......

In relation to individual choices that women make under patriarchal systems no, I don’t believe there is any such thing as an ‘objectively feminist’ or ‘objectively non feminist’ choice and further to that I think it is actively harmful to believe that it is appropriate for feminism to make those judgements regarding women’s choices or to apply those judgements as standards to other women in general.

I’m pretty sure I have already said that but apologies if not.

I don’t believe either the ‘objectively feminist/non feminist’ individual choice thing or the Pomo crap re woman choosing = feminist choice.

I think of it in terms of women’s individual choices being an ongoing negotiation with patriarchy and usually, where thought has been put in and choice has been made, a decision which ‘makes the best of it’ for those women as individuals.

I was just clarifying- I wanted to be sure I understood you.

I think individual action is important. I think we should all try very hard to live feminist lives- obviously falling short as we do. Because otherwise how will things ever change? To be a fridge magnet for a moment, we need to be the change we want to see.

You are essentially saying that it's not OK for women to have views about what constitutes feminism in the private, rather than public, sphere. The inherent contradiction in this argument is that you are making a judgement about MY private sphere when you tell me it's not OK for me to hold these views.

Dworkin's Right Wing Women went a long way in helping me understand why women make the choices they do. It went a long way toward helping me reel in my self righteous anger at women who failed to live up to my unrealistic expectations.

As far as men who presume to judge how feminist women are by how we negotiate the obstacles they put in our way? I don't care what they think.

Can anybody remember that great comment by, I think, Janice Turner, when she said that you can tell if something's important by whether men are doing it? I've phrased it badly but the fact that men aren't changing their names is, imo, rather telling.

No I’m saying it is essentially feminism employing tools of patriarchal oppression when it assumes a mantle of judging individual and private decisions of women living under a patriarchy as ‘objectively feminist/non-feminist’.

If you would like to make those determinations subjectively re yourself that is a different matter but when you apply them to other women via ‘objectively’ is when it becomes a problem, an IMO doing that is actually performing the work of patriarchy TBH.

As we have seen on this thread re a woman who experienced a man who tried to dominate her by shaming her due to her personal and private choices not living up to supposed ‘objective’ standards and then a thread where a number of feminists continued that same shaming until she explained her personal decision making process and then got a response saying ‘oh actually that’s ok, you can be an exception’

your maiden name is just your fathers name, his property. I say just chose the nicer name. It's fine to be a Ms Miss Mrs.... I remember my dad banging on about women with Ms as if it was single handedly going to bring down the entire establishment. I am still waiting ;)

This was not a thread discussing in the abstract how individual choices regarding men or relationships or marriage or how collective action involving co-ordinated individual choices can help to dismantle patriarchal structures/culture/institutions... it was one woman describing an unsettling experience of male dominance behaviour at work.

A man who co-opted feminism and his own supposed ‘feminist status’ in order to put a woman down for her own personal and private choices which are a. None of his business and b. Nothing to do with work.

And feminists on here almost exclusively responded by continuing his argument for him.

He needs to seriously fucking fuck off.

I took my husband’s name because it was a good moment to distance myself from my dad’s name. I’ve never felt the need to explain that to anyone at work, as it’s none of their business.

Tell him he’s a troll and you’ll have him for entirely inappropriate behaviour. He has no right to make you feel uncomfortable about the very personal decision you make regarding your relationship and your name.

You could drop a sexual harassment in the workplace pamphlet on his desk if you want to watch him deflate.

“A man who co-opted feminism and his own supposed ‘feminist status’ in order to put a woman down for her own personal and private choices which are a. None of his business and b. Nothing to do with work”

Absolutely. I think everyone agrees with that. You’re moving the goal posts a bit now!

I’m not meaning to move the goalposts so much as to bring the thread back from abstract discussion re how feminists ‘should’ live to the original post by the OP!

But there was a unanimous “he’s an arsehole” response to the OP.

It was only the 6th post when it started descending into the discussion re choices being objectively feminist/non feminist and women being accountable to feminism for their personal choices about their private lives.

Why people thought he was being an arsehole is quite important IMO. Just for being personal at work or also because the accountability of women in general to society or feminism for their personal and private decisions, which I see as negotiations with patriarchy rather than individual choices? That reflects one of the dynamics I commonly see re women and men in patriarchy- men are individually responsible for themselves (and often not even that), women are individually responsible for everyone and everything and accountable to everyone.

I think it’s deeply unhelpful

lass is not a feminist...was she number 6?

Just for being personal at work or also because the accountability of women in general to society or feminism for their personal and private decisions,

2nd one for me

I still say he is a twat and a bellend

Yes, lass’ post was number six but I wasn’t singling lass out. I was commenting on how the discussion developed from that post with a number of people making comments regarding women’s private choices in feminism chat.

How it developed from being about one arsehole man into being about how the arsehole man was ideologically correct and the op’s choice was non-feminist.

It’s not about lass and I don’t know or think it is important in any way whether lass would call herself a feminist or not.

ok offred

The OP said that changing her name was her choice as a feminist. I have huge issues with this. I also have huge issues with the man concerned engaging with her in this way and saying that he was a better feminist.