Male colleague - views on changing name

[Sailinghappy]

Just interested in what people think about this scenario.

Yesterday my male colleague (totally randomly) asked me if my surname was on my birth certificate. I said no, it's my surname through marriage. He openly laughed and said he was disappointed in me for taking my husband's surname at marriage. He said he thought he was "a better feminist" than me and that taking my husband's name is sexist. I told him I certainly am feminist and that I support women's choices, to do whatever they like. I wasn't forced to take his name, it was my decision and I'm happy with it!!

Do other people agree with my colleague or is he in the minority?

My personal belief is that people, where they put some thought into something, tend to make the choice they feel is best for them

The best choice oddly being that in vast majority of cases the women gives up her name.

I disagree with everything in your post Offred. None of these patrilineal practices are ever going to go away if on the one hand you decry them as patrilineal practices but on the other hand towing the line of this patrilineal practice was just the best choice for the individual.

But nothing will be done about the patrilineal practices while women collude with them

I considered saying it was collusion; it is.

I don’t see keeping your birth surname, which was passed down through patrilineal patriarchal culture, or picking another surname which was passed down through patrilineal patriarchal culture as doing anything useful re either of those things TBH.

I don’t believe ‘anything will be done’ if women started keeping birth names en masse either.

In what way is the issue of names anything other than a ‘making choices within the context of patriarchy’ issue or a ‘tinkering round the edges’ issue?

I don’t think you can proclaim individual name choices either feminist or anti-feminist TBH.

What you can criticise is patrilineal/patriarchal practices...

Totally agree with all of your posts Lass. One hundred percent.

Me too - completely concur with all that Lass has said!

I think it is dubious to believe that fighting patriarchy via individual choices within it rather than fighting for structural changes does anything other than collide with patriarchy TBH.

*collude

Wouldnt argue with that lass

But sometimes people just dont think of changing their name

I do know a couple who got married and she changed her name to his, then there was a massive family problem and they all changed their names to hers

Thats got nothing to do with the subject at hand...but i always think it was handy they had the same letter at the beginning of their surnames

I'd like dd to keep her name...she probably will

"We intended to have kids (otherwise I wouldn't have bothered)

I really don't get this one as an insurmountable argument."

I wasn't trying to make an "insurmountable argument".

I was trying to explain why I did it, personally, as a PP said she was interested.

I have discussed my personal reasons so would be grateful not to get attacked personally for the decision I made. I am more than happy to discuss in a theoretical sense but I posted my reasons in good faith, knowing as I do that it is a peculiar and not very suportable decision for a woman who has been feminist since year dot. And knowing that some poeple migth enjoy having a go. Still, I posted it as PP said she was genuinely interested.

I also think what many people are failing to recognise is that signalling belonging to men, for women and children within a patriarchy, can be pretty crucial for survival and in order to avoid destitution.

Women being able to makes choices of any kind does not just depend on the theory but actually on the real life consequences of said choice.

Yes, there is a lot of unthinking tradition involved but where thought is put in to it it is not as simple as ‘keeping your birth surname is the only feminist choice’.

It has a pretty tenuous link to feminism in general IMO given that it falls into a category of ‘individual choices women make within the context of patriarchy’ IMO

I agree with you as well Offred,

Scrutinising individual women and then saying they are "good feminists" "bad feminists" or "not feminists" gets us nowhere. It's exactly what the man in the OP did -

On the if enough women do it things will change thing - very few of my female friends are married, so most have their own surname, their partner has his surname, and the kids have his surname. That doesn't feel preferable to me - I feel it indicates the children as "belonging" to the man more, being a part of him. I undertsand why it is done this way (what with tradition + male insecurity about fatherhood / showing fatherhood) but it feels very wonky to me.

As soon as we are into scrutinising indiviudal choices, then you have to discard pretty much all women from feminism as there is not a one of us who has not bent to social norms/ expectations at some point.

I dislike the idea of feminism as some kind of gang that you have to display certain behaviours to be in. I have seen a lot that women who are not lesbians / women who have children should not be "allowed in". I think this stuff weakens us and gives an "in" for men like the one in the OP to be a total dick.

I don't think the name thing is the issue at all tbh. The male colleague couldn't give a toss about her name, he was just looking for something that he could use to bully her. He feels that he's superior to women and has the right to tell them what choices to make. He's aware that he can't overtly bully women anymore because that doesn't go down well with HR, but feminism is a gift to him. Like a wolf dressed in lamb's clothing he thinks he can get away with anything by telling her how be a 'better' woman as a feminist.

It really doesn't matter whether it's old-fashioned 'telling women what to wear for their own good' misogyny or modern 'telling women how to be a feminist' misogyny, by focusing on the point that he's making (which he probably doesn't have any opinion about anyway) you are missing the over-riding reason for making the point. To make a woman feel bad about herself.

Just tell him, telling women that their choices are wrong is not what a feminist does, it's what an arsehole a controlling misogynist does. Don't get into a debate about why you made your choices, just "It's my choice, and you trying to tell me how to live my life is not feminism, it's the opposite."

I actually do not believe really in the idea of individual choice being feminist or not feminist.

Women’s choices when made within a patriarchal society are choices women make within a patriarchal society. This involves many layers of ‘best because’ and that’s as far as it goes in terms of choice.

The problem is not that women need to be able to make different choices. It’s that all choices women make are made within a patriarchal society.

Offred

Yes. I agree absolutely.

Women as a class all have varying degrees of privilege and feminism will struggle to succeed without empathy to the reality of all members of our class. We might be more than 50% of the population, but we need every one of us on board to prevail.

We need to convince other women, not berate them, and we need to provide them with a place of safety to speak, not another place of judgment and fear. No doubt, they have enough of that already.

So fine, if your ‘best because’ choice you have put thought into is keeping a birth surname, or changing a name via deed poll, or taking a husband’s name, getting married, not getting married, giving kids your name or their father’s name...

They are all ‘best because’ choices made with reference to your relative power within society.

he's trying to trip you up. Don't even engage

This guy is anti-feminist. By taking your husband's name you did not become his chattel or reduce your rights in any way, you just took his name and that was your choice.

I was happy to lose my maiden name, I prefer my married name.

Changing ones name is not the same as changing the sex on a birth certificate. The name on the birth certificate is not changed, that change is recorded by separate documentation and there is no reason why this shouldn't be the case with gender reassignment, and the GRC being the documentation for change in gender.

Scrutinising individual women and then saying they are "good feminists" "bad feminists" or "not feminists" gets us nowhere. It's exactly what the man in the OP did

I couldn't care less whether any one is a good feminist or a bad feminist. However this idea that no women owns her name so what does it matter is pretty self-defeating.

I think it is dubious to believe that fighting patriarchy via individual choices within it rather than fighting for structural changes does anything other than collude with patriarchy

This is the difficulty I have with a certain theory of feminism. It is very good at identifying problems but less useful in practice at doing anything about them. "Fight for structural change" - but not for an individual to put her money where her mouth is.

I just said that I have given my personal reasons on this thread even though I knew it would result in some people seeing an opportunity to have a go.

I have never said that "no woman owns her own name" I have no idea where that even came from.

I personally don't really care much about my name, in modern "identity" language, it's simply not an important part of my identity.

I was happy to lose my maiden name, I prefer my married name

I would be happy if the expression "maiden name" dropped out of existence.

I have complained twice to Scottish government about its appearance on official forms. I can't remember which department the first one was but it apologised; the second one ignored me.

If anyone wants cultural and structural change you should complain every time an official form asks for your "maiden name"

It is sexist, outdated and judgemental.

Changing structures provides for individual choices though.

A small group of unusually economically powerful women who exist within patriarchy being able to make choices about names because the real life consequences of this for them and their DC are acceptable is pretty irrelevant TBH.

And yes ridding structures of language like ‘maiden name’ is a good example.

I have never said that "no woman owns her own name" I have no idea where that even came from

If that is directed at me I never said you did. It was clearly a general comment. You are not being attacked.