Interesting article about Incels, MRA’s and PUA’s

[Agrona]

medium.com/s/trustissues/the-deadly-incel-movements-absurd-pop-culture-roots-e5bef93df2f5

Incels= Involuntarily celibate
MRA’s = Men’s Rights Activists
PUA’s = Pick Up Artists

Interesting reflection on how women’s fears are regularly ignored.

The same old same old, but structured and rationalised. It's a fundamental feminist issue. Male violence is so common that the world doesn't even see it.

Mostly nonsense, the idea of a manosphere is deeply flawed.

The notion that incels are linked to PUA is nonsense.

The incel "movement" is overblown. For starters Elliot Rodger was in therapy almost as soon as he was old enough, his parents recognized as a child that he was deeply troubled

The constant use of Rodger as a figurehead for is wrong imo

The incel movement call Rodger "the Supreme Gentleman", and the guy who murdered a group of mostly women with a van in Toronto posted about him.

Who is constantly using Rodger as a figurehead for any group other than toxic men's rights groups?

The first few paragraphs detail planned acts of violence towards women, and do not deserve the dismissive critique posted above.

It's a good article. I have hung out on their sites out of curiosity, and briefly dated a PUA.

Of course PUAs and incels are linked. Many PUAs are former incels but have discovered highly manipulative and sometimes abusive and boundary violating tactics can work on women to get sex.

Incels are failed PUAs. Their entitlement is staggering snd worrisome.

Indeed.

Ereshkigal, you briefly dated a PUA? You are braver than me.

"Who is constantly using Rodger as a figurehead for any group other than toxic men's rights groups?"

The people constantly writing articles about him and the incel "movement" for starters, was that a serious question?

He was mentally ill and this was recognised very very very early on. Why are people referring to him as anything other than mentally ill?

"Of course PUAs and incels are linked. Many PUAs are former incels"

Where's your proof of that?

"Incels are failed PUAs."

Still no proof of that.

The reality is that PUA and incels have the same problem - they don't know how to talk to girls, sometimes people in general. They don't know how to attract women and they have no romantic/sexual options.

Lots of men grow up in environments that don't pass on certain social skills, eg single mother households, overly religious environments etc

The difference is that PUA's want to improve themselves in order to attract women. Incels wallow in their own bitterness

PUA is ultimately about getting laid but the reality is the the foundations of PUA are about self improvement, self confidence etc.

If you think PUA is still about "negs" then you're not very informed about what PUA actually is. It actually isn't too dissimilar to what you read in a lot of sales books, and has a lot in common with the meditation/mindfulness craze.

The whole "PUA teaches men to rape" only applies if you think men chatting up women in a bar is harassment and alcohol fuelled consensual sex between two people with lowered inhibitions can become rape when the women later regrets it.

The reality is that the sexual liberation of the 60s peaked in the 90s and 00s. Casual sex was seen as normal for men and women.

It's only as elements on the left have turned back from such progress (not just concerning sex but on ideas around race) and post #metoo that one night stands and everything surrounding them have become "problematic"

If my son had issues talking to women and being attractive I would much rather he did something to improve himself than staying in his bedroom wallowing in his own self pity.

Probably the best article on PUA is www.smh.com.au/opinion/hating-the-search-for-love-20141111-11k5px.html

Ereshkigal, you briefly dated a PUA? You are braver than me.

I worked it out after one date. I had a couple more dates, but unsurprisingly he was a prick. He still tries to contact me now but I have an amusing name for him in my phone so I ignore.

RooshV admits to raping women. Don't be ridiculous. It is all about getting sex by manipulative tactics.

Very interesting article (though I couldn't help an eye-roll at the compulsory "but ironically the Matrix was directed by two women" throwaway).

I suspect that a side-by-side comparison of the online grooming techniques used by the Incel/PUA communities and the far right could be extended to other areas like radical Islamism (I'm reading a very interesting autobiography by a man who got drawn into radical Islamism as a teen, then escaped). I'm also reminded of the cartoon I once saw of a police officer holding up a colour chart to his suspect's skin with the white end labelled "mentally unstable" and the brown end labelled "terrorist". I think the Elliott Rogers of this world are undoubtedly terrorists, it's just that because we are so accustomed to society brushing off violence against women as a random collection of individual acts, we don't see it. (The same happens with high school shootings - disaffected far right white kids and men with semi-automatics are always dismissed as simply mentally unstable).

PUA’s like Julian Blenc who had his visa revoked in Australia, Singapore and Brazil? Who promotes grabbing and choking women? Dragging the women’s heads close to his groin as a domination technique?

www.sbs.com.au/topics/life/article/2016/01/18/why-pick-artist-julien-blanc-most-hated-man-world

Or PUA’s who refer to women as ‘plates’ and try to keep as many ‘spinning’ at one time as possible? Nothing like the mindfulness I have studied.

Ereshkigal, your PUA sounds charming. (Charming as In not at all.)

"online grooming techniques used by the Incel/PUA communities"

Shark jumped.

"Or PUA’s who refer to women as ‘plates’ and try to keep as many ‘spinning’ at one time as possible?"

Do you think men (and women) should be monogamous?

"I worked it out after one date. I had a couple more dates,"

So how exactly did you get to the point where a) you were happy to exchange details with him b) you were happy to meet him for a date and c) you met him for a "couple more dates" ?

Why is that relevant to the conversation?

fms why are you trying to make PUA tactics sound innocuous?

The reality is that PUA and incels have the same problem - they don't know how to talk to girls, sometimes people in general. They don't know how to attract women and they have no romantic/sexual options.

The reality is that PUAs and Incels have the same problem. They feel entitled to sex and at the same time are unable to view women as humans, so they feel justified in abusing women in pursuit of sex.

I don't give a shiny shit about their lack of "options". Respecting women would be far more likely to give them options than either PUA or Incel.

Lots of men grow up in environments that don't pass on certain social skills, eg single mother households, overly religious environments etc
Why do you think growing up in a single mother household leads to poor social skills/inability to talk to women?

"Why is that relevant to the conversation?"

Because clearly something he did or said, or more likely the way he acted towards you was sufficient to build up a degree of attraction and interest in him

Always looking for pick-up tips, eh, fmsfms?

Scary article. As a teacher, I see the influence of this sort of thinking on some boys even at school age. It’s worrying.

Fms is transparent. I can't think of a way to campaign for the rights of unpleasant men which Fms hasn't tried.

Could you be a little more intrusive fms, I don't think you're quite there yet?

Thanks QuentinSummers for picking up on that before me.

I'm a LP of a near-27 year-old. (So, job done).

He is a well-balanced young man with a wide social circle, including women who he treats with respect. I know cos he brings friends home occasionally.

Man who regularly trolls feminism chat defends rapey masculinity shocker....