Interesting article about Incels, MRA’s and PUA’s

[Agrona]

medium.com/s/trustissues/the-deadly-incel-movements-absurd-pop-culture-roots-e5bef93df2f5

Incels= Involuntarily celibate
MRA’s = Men’s Rights Activists
PUA’s = Pick Up Artists

Interesting reflection on how women’s fears are regularly ignored.

The slut deserved it. People stop engaging with this charming man.

Any man who comes to PUA wanting a relationship is pissing money up the wall. PUA tactics teach you to lie to, coerce and trick women into doing what you want.

As soon as a woman finds out you have done this she will hate you.

"I do not have a choice about getting on the bus or train (I have to travel), or going to the supermarket "

"When I'm out in public, my head isn't empty of thoughts"

The context of most PUA is attracting women on nights out. Whilst PUA does also teach men how to "day game" the core focus is nights out.

"Well no actually, never had a ONS or given my number to a man at a bar but I don’t know what that actually says about anything TBH."

Because plenty of women do.

Don't act like every woman is a puritan or a female incel or a virgin waiting for her wedding night.

As I already said - sexual liberation peaked in the 90s and 00's. Look at Sex and the City. Women were encouraged to go out and have casual sex.

Plenty of women are perfectly happy meeting blokes in bars/clubs, getting chatted up and taking things further.

It's another example of why most women don't identify as feminists - for every woman that says getting chatted up is harassment there are plenty who welcome the attention (if done in the right way by someone they are attracted to)

But please, keep arguing that women don't like male attention.

@fmsfms Bars are one of the few public spaces where it is actually OK to chat someone up. It's well-understood that bars are the designated places for that kind of interaction, and, importantly, entering bars is strictly optional. It's not like Revolution sell catfood or other essentials. Although if I am in a pub with a pint or a cuppa and I am reading or typing, stay away.

"I guess what you are trying to say is that because PUA tactics of lying and coercing women into sex actually result in men getting access to sex then it’s an effective tactic."

No @offred I know exactly what I'm trying to say, so don't "so you're saying" me please

These subcultures are united by the philosophy of the “red pill,” named after a scene in The Matrix, a movie that, it bears noting, was directed by two women.

Eh? The Matrix was directed by the Wachowski brothers wasn't it?

Anyway, incels, MRAs and to a lessers extent (though creepy as fuck) PUAs scare the shit out of me. The fact that so many men either hate women or think we are here as wank socks is scary.

I've had lots of one night stands, mostly with men I already knew socially. A FWB situation.

My criteria included sexual confidence (not entitlement), warmth, humour and a total lack of pressure. I've always mixed in circles where men who genuinely like women are far from uncommon.

Some pouty angry incel wouldn't get past my radar. Any hint of manipulation is repellent.

@fmsfms I'd like to add that I have hooked up at bars and via the much-missed Craigslist personals, and every single time has not been with a PUA (the negging is easy to spot and I react to it with hostility) and I have run some sort of boundary respect test with the guy every single time.

Also, I don't drink when I'm pulling. More importantly, I won't fuck someone who is drunk. I don't believe in using alcohol to lower inhibitions, because it impairs judgement, and I insist on informed enthusiastic consent from my partners, which they can't give if drunk.

It's possible to be an utter rake and still behave ethically. It starts with recognising the boundaries of your would-be sexual partners and being OK with sometimes not getting laid.

Lol, you asked if none of us had had ONS or given out numbers in bars...

I’m not acting as if all women are anything. I answered your question.

I’m pretty far from being a Puritan too...

Also ha ha ha ha re SATC.... ha ha ha...

You understand you called it ‘day game’... this is the whole point. PUA targets men who are being socially sanctioned/miserable for failing at masculinity by portraying PUA as a way they can realise their masculinity. It promotes the language of the hunt, it dehumanises women in order to make these men feel better about themselves.

Men can lie to and coerce an truck and manipulate women, sometimes for a significant period of time but ultimately, if you treat women as objects and relationships as a game you are going to end up alone either in your bedroom or in prison on some kind of abuse related charges.

@hornytortoise "Eh? The Matrix was directed by the Wachowski brothers wasn't it?"

One of them transitioned after entering a relationship with a famous Hollywood Dominatrix, the other then transitioned later.

And the Dominatrix link is actually a good supporting piece of evidence for the sexual fetish aspect of M2F transitions.

Go on any Dominatrix site and they will offer "forced feminisation" and "sissy training" - basically making men dress like women, this can be as mild as making them wear underwear to full on control of their gender identity and full time transition (as in the case of the first Wachowski)

fms is playing some weird objectifying women bingo.

My sexual history or intentions are none of your business. Fuck off you bigoted weirdo.

making men dress like women?! LOL...

The rich man paying a dominatrix to cater to his fetish of being feminised is being made to dress like a woman?

Do you know how frequently that fetish is associated with having sexist views? Can you think of any reason why that might be?

Nobody here has ever had a one night stand with someone they met that night? Ok then.

Nobody here has ever given their number to a guy in a bar? Ok then.

Not really seeing what this has to do with anything. I have had one night stands (never sober though, and I do think a few times the guy has purposely waited for me to get drunk enough to do it, given I said no a few times prior..which is pretty bad)

I have never gave my number to anyone though, after being stalked by a fully grown man aged 14. I figure since then and that experience, the less men know about my life and even stuff like how to contact me the better really.

But one night stands and giving numbers is nothing similar to purposely setting out to lie and manipilate your way into someones pants. which I doubt many women have ever done, where it seems a fair few men do it on a regular basis. On that basis, the best I can call those men are creepy fuckers..and the worst (which is probably closer to the truth) is rapists.

@offred "making men dress like women?! LOL...

The rich man paying a dominatrix to cater to his fetish of being feminised is being made to dress like a woman?

Do you know how frequently that fetish is associated with having sexist views? Can you think of any reason why that might be?"

I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. I was merely answering @hornytortoise question re the gender identity of the Wachowskis

Now sure, we can get into a discussion about how forced a "forced feminisation" fetish really is. It's the same kind of misnomer as "consensual non consent"

I would assume there was a degree of cultivation of the final gender identity from his Dominatrix - we can speculate as to how willing he was but it's irrelevant

interesting thread on the relationship and his transformation

lecter.org/forum/showthread.php?t=248

The Dominatrix was previously married to a F2M porn star, lol

Ok for any men reading who are in the PUA/ Incel bracket here’s a pro tip:

Stop looking to other men to learn about women. If you are in any doubt why you seem to be so unsuccessful ask a female friend/ family member. If you don’t have any of those then your problem is more obvious. If you can’t form friendships with women how the blitheration do you expect to date them?

Pro tip for making friends: Focus on what YOU can bring to a friendship, don’t focus on what you want out of them, that’s not your department. If you give, decent people are champing at the bit to reciprocate.

It’s really not rocket science!

@fmsfms: The context of most PUA is attracting women on nights out. Whilst PUA does also teach men how to "day game" the core focus is nights out.

You still have the problem that the PUA approach is still fundamentally adversarial: it creates a "hunter-vs-hunted" dynamic that, as one of the "hunted", I find frightening and demeaning. I'm a human being, treat me like one!

If it is about ‘attracting women’ the PUAs would be teaching their students to sit and wait to be approached by women... but they don’t, they teach their students how to approach women, how to harass women, how to reduce their inhibitions, lie to them, coerce them and force them into sexual relationships.

" wait to be approached by women"

Ah right, society tells women to make the first move, does it?

Don’t claim PUA is about ‘attracting’ women then.

Masculinity is what tells men and women that men ‘make the first move’ and that relationships are a game/a hunt.

There is nothing more off putting to me than someone ‘making a move’ TBH.

The relationships I have are about connection. Whenever I have discovered a partner was treating a relationship like a game with ‘moves’ the relationship has ended.

Even if it has preliminary success re getting things going, the lies and manipulations will be found out and then it becomes obvious that there never was a relationship of any kind because one person was lying about who they are.

It’s not a win either is it really? If you think the only way to have a relationship is to lie about who you are, bully someone and trick them then TBH you will never be loved by anyone. You’ll have an empty shell, a pretend version of love which could fall and crush you at any time.

It’s a sad existence that only serves to reinforce that you are unlovable for those who believe in it.

Women fooled for a time however are able to go on in their lives perfectly well knowing their worth.

Men are so much more needy and irrationally emotional than women are TBH.

"There is nothing more off putting to me than someone ‘making a move’ TBH"

And as I keep stating: there are plenty of women that are happy to engage in consensual one night stands, casual sex or to be chatted up by blokes.

In this kind of environment it is expected that men make the first move.

The notion that men should wait for women to make the first move is inherently flawed.

It was you who posited that PUA teach men to ‘attract women’...

If a woman actually wants a ONS then PUA techniques are not necessary are they?