Interesting article about Incels, MRA’s and PUA’s

[Agrona]

medium.com/s/trustissues/the-deadly-incel-movements-absurd-pop-culture-roots-e5bef93df2f5

Incels= Involuntarily celibate
MRA’s = Men’s Rights Activists
PUA’s = Pick Up Artists

Interesting reflection on how women’s fears are regularly ignored.

Also hilarious addition of ‘single mothers’ as the ones responsible for incels...

Y I saw that! But there was so much else lol

I feel pity for the sharks. Will no one think of the sharks who have been jumped?

"Also hilarious addition of ‘single mothers’ as the ones responsible for incels..."

Incredible strawman, congrats

Lol

Here are some more thoughts

David Futrelle literally trawls "manosphere" sites for the most extreme posts he can find,, he then posts these comments on his blog and uses those to tar the rest of the manosphere with same brush

Imagine if the trans activists did the same to mumsnet- I'm sure they could find plenty of comments which cross the line to genuine trans phobia and used those to tar all mums net users with, you wouldn't take that would you

Likewise Julian Blanc, using the words/actions of one extremist doesn't tarnish the whole movement - just as we don't judge Islam by the minority that commit atrocities

Men are allowed and capable of approaching women without it being harassment. I liken it to being in a shop, everyone says "no" when approached by a salesperson, until we actually want to buy. It's the same with getting chatted up - of the man is awful or a sleaze or persistent then it's a pain, but if he's attractive for whatever reason then all of a sudden we welcome the attention

You liken men approaching women to shoppers looking at products to buy? Right-o.

No wonder you're an incel

You do know that rather than educating us about how wrong we are you are just proving our points fms?

Lol

Imagine if the trans activists did the same to mumsnet- I'm sure they could find plenty of comments which cross the line to genuine trans phobia

Many people have tried to find them. They don't. The only one cited by that former Mumsnet mod, was actually a quote from a transadvocate.

Men are allowed and capable of approaching women without it being harassment. I liken it to being in a shop

Oh my word

Is this where the phrase "on the shelf" pops up?

Just WOW!

Head filling with woman and shopping analogies...

#loser

@fmsfms The whole "PUA teaches men to rape" only applies if you think men chatting up women in a bar is harassment and alcohol fuelled consensual sex between two people with lowered inhibitions can become rape when the women later regrets it.

When I read about "tactics for overcoming Last-Minute Resistance", in other words "ignoring a woman's no", I figured PUAs out as rapists.

See also: Owen Cook aka Tyler Durden, co-founder of PUA training outfit "Real Social Dynamics", bragging about raping a stripper.

PUAs are rapists.

Mostly nonsense, the idea of a manosphere is deeply flawed.

if the manosphere doesn't exist, how can the rest of it be tarred with the same brush, fms?

@fmsfms, the second an attractive man ignores my boundaries, my sense of attraction to him evaporates.

Men are allowed and capable of approaching women without it being harassment. I liken it to being in a shop, everyone says "no" when approached by a salesperson,

NO NO NO. When I walk into a shop, I do so by choice, and I accept the really annoying, anxiety-triggering salesperson as the cost of that. Also, the salesperson does not want to date me or ~~have sex with~~ rape me.

I do not have a choice about getting on the bus or train (I have to travel), or going to the supermarket (I have to eat). I DO NOT WANT a man to approach me with sexual or romantic intentions at those times. I do not want a man to approach me in public, unless he is asking for directions or telling me that I've dropped my shawl, or has a similar non-sexual excellent reason.

If a man attempts to flirt with me or preposition me in public, he has already crossed my boundaries and I have said and will say "FUCK OFF CREEP" very loudly. If a man attempts to flirt with me or preposition me in public, that is already harassment. I am not public property, my body, mind, and time are not up for grabs. I do not owe you a polite refusal. I do not owe you anything, you imposed on me.

Because of bad experiences with assholes like @fmsfms, my default response to a male trying to get my attention in public is "ignore", followed by "FUCK OFF CREEP" if the male persists. This harms the men who just want directions.

My first bad experience was when a drunk prepositioned me on the way to school. I was 13, and in school uniform. Men are a hazard to me and I will vet the hell out of them before letting them in my life.

lol

I am not public property, my body, mind, and time are not up for grabs. I do not owe you a polite refusal. I do not owe you anything

^ this exactly

The simple truth is that incels and PUA are creeps who loathe and distrust women. They're unsuccessful with women because we pick up on these feelings.

Nobody here has ever had a one night stand with someone they met that night? Ok then.

Nobody here has ever given their number to a guy in a bar? Ok then.

I am not public property, my body, mind, and time are not up for grabs.

I'll discuss this a little more. When I'm out in public, my head isn't empty of thoughts, just waiting for a man to come and brighten darken my day with his sexual entitlement and disregard for my personhood. I am usually thinking about something, maybe a difficult problem to solve at work, or a problem with my family, or the next stage of replanting my garden. Hell, I even carry a notebook to document my thoughts with, that's how much I think in public. When a man interrupts me to start his attempt to coerce (because let's be honest, the kind of guy who approaches women in public spaces doesn't actually care about consent) me into sex, he interrupts my thoughts. That shows that he doesn't value my thoughts and my ability to think. If he doesn't value my thoughts, he doesn't value me enough for me to let him into my bed.

Well no actually, never had a ONS or given my number to a man at a bar but I don’t know what that actually says about anything TBH.

"The simple truth is that incels and PUA are creeps who loathe and distrust women."

Except that doesn't tally up with the aspiring PUA who wants to know how to attract women.

Not every PUA is in it for the casual sex and one night stands - some just want to find a relationship

"I do not have a choice about getting on the bus or train (I have to travel), or going to the supermarket

I guess what you are trying to say is that because PUA tactics of lying and coercing women into sex actually result in men getting access to sex then it’s an effective tactic.

I don’t think feminists are particularly concerned about whether lying and coercion result in men getting access to sex. What they are concerned about is women being lied to and coerced by men into sex.