Interesting article about Incels, MRA’s and PUA’s

[Agrona]

medium.com/s/trustissues/the-deadly-incel-movements-absurd-pop-culture-roots-e5bef93df2f5

Incels= Involuntarily celibate
MRA’s = Men’s Rights Activists
PUA’s = Pick Up Artists

Interesting reflection on how women’s fears are regularly ignored.

"If a woman actually wants a ONS then PUA techniques are not necessary are they?"

How have you come to that conclusion?

The majority of one night stands (and probably historically the majority of people born) will be because at some point a man approached a woman and made the first move.

Because what PUA teach is not how to attract women but how to ‘overcome’ silly little problems like a woman not being interested or not consenting.

What PUA do not teach men is how to attract women, how to respect women, how to see women as people or have mutuality in interactions with women.

As seen in your comparison of sales assistants in shops, it is about how men can get things from women, which literally no woman ever is attracted to, even for a ONS.

PUA have to teach men how to do these things whilst covering up that that is what they are doing.

On some occasions a woman may want to use a man in a similar way and it is irrelevant what techniques the man is using.

Just wondering what has to happen in someone’s life for them to end up on mumsnet defending sexual abusers and misogynists?

@fmsfms In this kind of environment it is expected that men make the first move.

That's bullshit.

The notion that men should wait for women to make the first move is inherently flawed.

I'm trying to remember which bar I was in that had a sign up telling men not to approach women and that women should feel free to approach men directly or ask the bar staff to introduce them. It was a pricey bar but I have never felt more comfortable out for an evening. Women are the ones with the most skin in the game: we get pregnant, we get pelvic inflammatory disease if we get an STI, we get cystitis if the sex is too rough or too late at night (which is ironically why I no longer go pulling at bars and am rapidly growing to prefer my vibrator over a man). Therefore it's only right that we should do the choosing.

Lol at men making the first move

@bd67th "That's bullshit."

You didn't read that article you linked, did you?

"Anecdotally, I have the evidence that proves Fisher’s theory."

Anecdotes are not compelling evidence yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

Which brings me neatly on to:

"I'm trying to remember which bar I was in that had a sign up telling men not to approach women and that women should feel free to approach men directly or ask the bar staff to introduce them"

Oh wow, so you went to one bar.

@fmsfms Actually, I did, which is how I read "Science is on my side. Anthropological Biologist Helen Fisher’s new book Anatomy Of Love: A Natural History Of Mating, Marriage And Why We Stray explores this in detail. She cites several studies which found that in the majority of instances, women are the the ones who initiate contact with men they’re attracted to."

My point is that that bar was a good idea, and wasn't the sausagefest that many bars are, because men were barred from harassing women or even speaking to them uninvited.

My point is that that bar was a good idea, and wasn't the sausagefest that many bars are, because men were barred from harassing women or even speaking to them uninvited.

Bearing in mind how women have discussed, on this forum, the use of the women's toilets to escape men who won't take no for an answer, it should be obvious how a bar filled with PUAs would rapidly lose its female clientele.

"Bearing in mind how women have discussed, on this forum, the use of the women's toilets to escape men who won't take no for an answer, it should be obvious how a bar filled with PUAs would rapidly lose its female clientele."

A) who's mentioned a bar full of PUAs?

B) a few posts on a feminism forum aren't compelling evidence of anything, as already stated many women are happy to be chatted up

And as I already asked but nobody could answer - I'm sure many of us have been happy to give our number or go further with random men that approached us

Maybe the fact that people aren't answering is evidence that they aren't interested in creepy conversations with creepy guys

I did answer you anyway. So did other people.

Hilarious and predictable that you constantly troll around thinking you are the bringer of evidence and clearly aren’t interested in listening.

Wonder if that’s anything to do with your defence of rapey masculinity?!

@bd67th "Actually, I did, which is how I read "Science is on my side. Anthropological Biologist Helen Fisher’s new book Anatomy Of Love: A Natural History Of Mating, Marriage And Why We Stray explores this in detail. She cites several studies which found that in the majority of instances, women are the the ones who initiate contact with men they’re attracted to.""

Where are these studies?

Have you read or seen these studies?

How do you know these studies are valid? After all, when I link to studies about biological differences between the sexes people are quick to tell me what is wrong with these studies?

Have you read the book "A random collection of studies to cite on the internet during a debate?" It's full of studies that prove the exact opposite of the point you're trying to make

See how randomly mentioning studies without any actual studies isn't compelling at all?

Men are expected to make the first move in society. This is not really up for debate.

Plenty of men are capable of doing so in a way that isn't harassment.

It's only feminism that sees men approaching women as harassment/problematic.

PUA do not teach men to approach women in a way that isn’t harassment. They teach men how to harass women and make a woman too afraid to complain of harassment.

"PUA do not teach men to approach women in a way that isn’t harassment. They teach men how to harass women and make a woman too afraid to complain of harassment."

Evidence of that?

Every PUA advice ever.

Also see screenshots of said book.

"Every PUA advice ever."

Right, if it is so prevalent it's easy to find an example then

"screenshots"

Reeeee, more anecdotes - one person "observing" something is not evidence

The screenshot even contradicts you: "westerners still cling to the concept that men are the seducers"

We live in the West, FYI

She’s writing about where the idea that men pick up women comes from and how it isn’t borne out by observations of interactions but is socially constructed to benefit patriarchal practices where women were property of men.

If you read the book you will be able to see she’s drawing evidence of commonality across all humans and commenting on ‘the west’ as unusual for clinging onto that socially constructed view of interactions between men and women.

I’m not going to bother trawling PUA sites again. Either you understand consent and human interaction and have never bothered to read them or you are a rapey bastard yourself.

Because what PUA teach is not how to attract women but how to ‘overcome’ silly little problems like a woman not being interested or not consenting.

Exactly.

Oh for Christ's sake fms, when you are in a hole stop digging.

You are an exemplar of why PUA 'trainees' are revolting creatures.

The problem with these PUA/Incel customers is if you only view women as sex objects you are going to run into trouble when trying to interact with them.

In addition I can report tonnes of women will initiate contact both in day and bar/nightclub situations. This whole “men must make the first move” is utter bullshit.

I’m no oil painting and about half of my relationships/hookups have been initiated by the woman. A female friend teases me she can’t leave me alone for 5 minutes without some strange woman coming up and striking up a conversation.

One thing that is very interesting is the article highlights that women have raised concerns about things which affect them, only to be dismissed. These things later impact the wider society (men) who then wonder why it happened.

Then one person again dismisses concerns and evidence, provides no evidence for their opinions and is rude and dismissive (and shows no empathy for women or the sharks which have been jumped). (Apologies for the flippancy.)

Hmmm.

Because clearly something he did or said, or more likely the way he acted towards you was sufficient to build up a degree of attraction and interest in him

Ah, PUAs and their devotion to the idea that men's looks are irrelevant to women's attraction to them, or ought to be.

Imagine if the trans activists did the same to mumsnet- I'm sure they could find plenty of comments which cross the line to genuine trans phobia and used those to tar all mums net users with, you wouldn't take that would you

Sorry, off topic and thread has moved on... but I couldn't let this pass.

I have been on Mumsnet for a long time, regularly read AIBU and feminist chat threads and have never seen an incidence of 'transphobia' or a poster who is afraid of transpeople.

Posters stating transwomen are men... Yep but this is fact not transphobia.
Posters 'misgendering' a transperson, so calling 'Lily' Madigan 'he'.... yep, but again this is fact and not transphobia.
Actual 'transphobia'.... an example of which might be someone stating that all transpeople are paedophiles or out to kill all cispeople.... nope, never happens.

Yes, Seawitchly and additionally they do try to do this (though so far the only post that really seems to have been latched onto is one actually written by a TRA as a straw-man parody of what they thought MNetters believed).