Soul man

[blackteasplease]

Had this 1980s film been mentioned here re the trans debate?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Man_(film)

A white boy who takes tanning pills to make himself black and geta scholarship? I remembered it dimly but just looked it up and it seems really apt. He realises all the advantages he's had being white and that he can go back to being white and having that privilege at any time!

Sorry if it turns out that film has been discredited in some way but I can't see why it would from the synopsis!

How is this in any way relevant to the trans debate? Are you seriously suggesting all trans women are disingenuous and 'pretending'?

Can't see where she said 'all transwomen' are anything

I think that's why daim used the word "suggesting", Rufus.

How is this in any way relevant to the trans debate

It is very relevant. Race and gender are both social constructs. Skin colour and sex are biological realities.

People who say they are actually the opposite sex are lauded, white people who identify as black are condemned - why is this?

Additionally men have pretended to be women to for eg get into political office

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/05/17-men-busted-pretending-trans-women-run-office-mexico/amp/

So how is it not relevant?

i cant see where she is 'suggesting' that ALL transwomen are anything either

The film is about a white man who disingenuously pretends to be black in order to cheat in an exam.

How exactly is that relevant to the trans debate? Unless you are suggesting trans people are all being disingenuous. In which case I have no words.

I suppose it's a question of interpretation Rufus, but I won't presume to explain daim's interpretation myself

Maybe daim is doing that 'expanding' thing

You know

Where you say something and someone else goes 'oh so you are saying....' (or suggesting)

Its fucking irritating

And i know that it happens on both sides of any debate...cheap stunt

Oooh crosspost rat

Hope littleone is fully recovered

It would be good for the OP to clarify exactly how she sees this being relevant to the trans debate?

Nice to see you again btw! RatRolyPoly

Well obviously

To be fair she's not had much of a chance with all the 'suggesting'

And i think that all sorts of people can be disingenuous

And that includes all men and women however they identify

I don’t think it’s a good enough movie to use or discuss in any part of the debate really. It handles the subject of appropriation badly and uses it as a set-up for a load of weak and stereotypical jokes - typical 80s laddish comedy stuff.

I think it's already been explained why it is relevant. You just don't seem to like the comparison, daim.

yeah its relevent because both are appropriation

Meh, I think it can be sometimes useful and sometimes not. I think sometimes it's the same as saying, "you do realise that it looks like you're saying xyz to anyone looking at it from this perspective; is that what you meant to say?". Fair enough. The sometimes people mean it to set up a straw man argument. As with so many things it's all a question of intent I think.

FWIW I'm hopeful the OP didn't mean to liken the deliberate defrauding by the film's protagonist to all trans people, but I can see what daim's saying that it's easy to interpret it that way what with that being quite a central tenet of the story.

...and also the OP's second paragraph which, well, does rather suggest that's the comparison she's making.

I am as happy as larry to use the word SOME

I think its would be fair enough to say that SOME people who identify as ABC are being disingenuous

But i think its unfair and an outright lie to say that the OP means every single person who identifies as ABC

But then i quite like nuance...and i dont make shit up (on here at least

Okay point taken, let's go with 'some'

I also interpreted the OP as saying some disingenuous trans women will retain their male privilege and I disagree.

I do not see how being a trans women gives you the same privilege as being male.

LARPing is as LARPing does!

Thank you daim

I dont think that being a transwomen necessarily gives you the same privilege as a male (ive no idea to be honest)

But i do think that in some cases if it were a life or death situation that people could ACT at least if they werent female, which is were i think the OP was coming from (could be wrong as shes not come back yet)

The same thing with being gay, ds1 could hide that fact (he has been told he is too straight to be gay) but I honestly dont think his boyfriend could

I hope that makes sense

Haven't seen the film. Did the guy have a nice, pleasant time pretending to be black? Was everybody really nice to him? Was it totally worth it to get the scholarship, even if he could "go back" at any time?

I'm not sure how accurate a representation that would be to be honest, but more importantly I don't think someone masquerading as the opposite sex to gain an advantage would have it quite so easy in real life... So it's probably a reeeaallly long shot to think anyone but the very dimmest among us would try it.

That's the problem with fictional films; you can never be sure how much of what they show is what would actually happen. If he had an awful time and learnt a valuable lesson or if he celebrated his easy win over human decency, who knows whether either's realistic. The truth is, to me, the idea of pretending to be one sex or the other without a really, really pressing existential reason seems pretty far fetched in most scenarios, and couldn't really achieve an awful lot.

I think some (but not all) of us can agree the link with being trans is at best very, very tenuous.

I can't think of any parallels whereby a lad identifies as something he isn't in order to win a prize or scholarship. Can anyone else think of one?

I can but don't think we are being allowed to today.