Soul man

[blackteasplease]

Had this 1980s film been mentioned here re the trans debate?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Man_(film)

A white boy who takes tanning pills to make himself black and geta scholarship? I remembered it dimly but just looked it up and it seems really apt. He realises all the advantages he's had being white and that he can go back to being white and having that privilege at any time!

idea of someone being motivated by advantage is really quite debatable, full stop? And honestly, not in the least bit realistic.

Woah. Did you miss the financial crash? All those dim and silly people (they still have the cash BTW).

Woah. Did you miss the financial crash?

Er, what? Did the bankers all pretend to be women? Or black? I thought that's what we were talking about... And specifically pretending to be a woman would come with so many downsides (society being what it is) that you'd have to be dim to do it.

There's nothing dim about being motivated by advantage, but I was saying that being motivated to present as black, or to present as the opposite sex - by advantage - would be a really dim means of pursuing that end!

This is nothing to do with the financial crash.

It's about taking yourself down from an elevated position meaning you arguably have an 'advantage' over those in the position you have moved into.

The thing is the act of "moving between the two" is so very stigmatised in our culture that any advantage you might retain you lose twice over in the moving.

I can think of umpteen examples of TRAs who are benefiting from the situation. Every single TIM in women's sports for a start.

That's why you'd be a fool to do it.

Prawn I do agree there have been times where trans women in sport have had an unfair advantage over other women but to say the trans woman's motivation for transitioning was to gain that unfair advantage is really quite a leap.

Every single TIM in women's sports for a start.

You're only looking at one aspect of their lives though; you're not looking at the whole picture to see if the move from man to woman would be worth it for someone to undertake purely for the sake of their sport.

You look at the lives of trans people - the flack they take, online and in the media, the social scorn of many (particularly trans people in the public eye), the difficulties with dating, the medical interventions and hormone adjustments (re:sport), the potential infertility, the constant justification, the conservatism and bigotry that still persists... How anyone would think our culture is one in which all of that would be totally worth it for the sake of being in league one in the women's rather than league 5 in the men's is a bit nuts to me. I can't see it myself.

Being trans every single day of your life does not look like a walk in the park. It's certainly not, "oh, if I take these tanning pills I'll get that scholarship and everything else will carry on as normal", is it.

to say the trans woman's motivation for transitioning was to gain that unfair advantage is really quite a leap.

YY

daim

Oh so you are saying that there is not risk in men being allowed to identify as women. And also that that risk hasn't ever been realised?

IAM

No, I'm at a loss...

It could be though rat. And some people.always take advantage of an opportunity.

Transplants we could get into an argument about the entire concept of being transgender and men being 'allowed' to identify as women (as they have legally been able to for many years) but if you reject this concept then we're not going to get anywhere.

blackteas you would have to have a very dim view of trans women if you really think they are 'taking advantage of an opportunity'. I suppose you're not denying this.

How very sad really.

Do you know what? If I was single, or I thought DH really wouldn't care, I might just decide to identify as a bloke. Only if it didn't involve anything too intrusive, like surgery, mind. I think there was an article about two trans academics (one mtf and one ftm) I think, and their experiences. The ftm found they were taken much more seriously. I don't have gender dysphoria, but I could rationalise a decision to live as a man. I am sure many other people could too, for many and various reasons. Not all of them benign.

I didn't say that sporting advantage was the only reason for transition, rather that they're using their trans status to cheat. In America winning at sports can get you scholarships and $$$ too. And judging by the silhouettes of those two runners they are perfectly normal teenage boys: no hormones and no surgery. Maybe they're sincere, but they can change their minds as soon as it suits them. It's like it kids from wealthy families slumming it in a deprived area.

It annoys me when people co-opt the real agony of old school transsexuals and apply it to non-dysphoric TIM who remain entirely male physically. The explosion in trans numbers is partly driven by porn addled heterosexual men.

@Daimbars As Rat points out, it would be a really silly plan to identify as someone you are not in order to gain some kind of advantage.

Two words: Rachel Dolezal.

But the point is flowers you haven't. Why? Because you don't have gender dysphoria so why would you go to the trouble?

Only on Mumsnet would a trans person go to all the trouble of being transgender and everything it entails in order to satisfy some dark ulterior motive.

@Ratrolypoly How anyone would think our culture is one in which all of that would be totally worth it for the sake of being in league one in the women's rather than league 5 in the men's is a bit nuts to me. I can't see it myself.

A substantial number of men don't believe that they have privilege, and some even believe that women have privilege. To them, being female confers no disadvantage. Should they be read as female and treated as such by men after transistion, they mistake the misogyny they face for transphobia.

Daim, sounds you are pretty naive about the lengths men will go to to achieve a desired sexual end. Such as becoming a paediatrician, FFS. Or a black cab driver. Men with careers and families they will lose over it creating concealed film kits to obtain upskirt shots on escalators or film women using the loo. Men who spend months, even years, getting a parents to trust them so they can abuse the DC.

Men will do almost anything to obtain their desires. Hanging around for a while on sites where TIM confide makes it very clear that paraphilias are disturbingly often the root of their transition.

Only on Mumsnet would a trans person go to all the trouble of being transgender and everything it entails in order to satisfy some dark ulterior motive.

Lots of people do lots of things for dark ulterior motives. And if trans status were self-ID, becoming trans would be a lot less 'trouble' for everyone; those with dysphoria, those who are gender non-conforming but really don't need additonal legal protections, and anyone with dark ulterior motives.

I didn't say that sporting advantage was the only reason for transition, rather that they're using their trans status to cheat.

To cheat means "to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage"; so either they're transitioning dishonestly in order to gain that advantage in sport... or they're not cheating. If they are trans and they participate in a sport under the rules of the governing body, that's not cheating. Even if you think it gives them an advantage. They are not the arbiters of what is fair, sport is.

Also the US has some nuts rules around highschool sport, but I don't think it's necessarily helpful to talk about trans people in the US when we're talking about trans people in the UK; or are we? I assumed we were because of the usual self-ID connections to this debate, and that being a UK legislative change.

Should they be read as female and treated as such by men after transistion, they mistake the misogyny they face for transphobia.

Undoubtedly trans people do face transphobia; you know, people having a visceral reaction to that which is different? Really prevalent through human history, very very common.

Even if people reacted to them entirely as women they would be aware and affected by the societal rejection of that which is "different" and "unnatural"; it's the kind of transphobia that would make a trans woman afraid of being outed in the first place!

So no, that fear of outing for fear of reprisals is not anybody mistaking misogyny for transphobia. Jeez, can't trans people even name their own inequity now?

bd67th Rachel Dolezal great example. Things didn't end too well for her did they.

@daimbars bd67th Rachel Dolezal great example. Things didn't end too well for her did they.

The point is that she tried it. She tried pretending to be black and it worked for a while, she was high up in the NAACP for a while.

Rat if you have been through male puberty and therefore have all the multiple advantages against female runners that this provides then you are cheating if you compete against women in a single sex event.

It makes no difference whether or not you can get away with it because irresponsible sporting bodies have altered the rules. It's still cheating.

I think those policies will be reversed sooner rather than later. Too many sports fans will perceive the blatant injustice and get angry.

@ratrolypoly, I'm not talking about fear of being outed, I'm talking about finding out the hard way that being a woman under patriarchy sucks.

When a transwoman is perceived as female (aka "passes") and hence treated badly, they experience misogyny. When a transwomen is perceived as trans (aka "doesn't pass") and is hence treated badly, they experience transphobia. Sometimes, the misogyny is mistaken for transphobia because the transwoman in question didn't believe feminists when we said "women are treated like crap".

People will always look for ways to take advantage for their own gain. It doesn't matter how they do it as long as the gain is made. I remember a couple of years ago in the press it was reported many inmates in prison changed religion because the food served to Jewish prisoners was deemed to be superior.

To 'claim' to have changed gender to elicit and advantage is not new. Drag acts did it for years. Performers often not good enough as men would dress as women, exaggerate their mannerisms and bingo, they were live at the Palladium. For men to now see changing gender as a way to humiliate women, get into women's spaces, abuse women is not too large a step and some will take that option. To deny this is likely to happen is naive in the extreme.