Transgender man gives birth and wants to be recorded as baby's father

[OrchidInTheSun]

FFS

I just heard this on the news. This fucked up person says it's a breach of their human rights not to be recorded as the baby's father.

I'm kind of running out of words to express my feelings about this

ChattyLion and Orchid
Sorry I'm late in replying! I think I'm like 8 or 9 time zones behind.

Essentially our eggs sit dormant in our ovaries. (They are formed during fetal life, I forget which week.) At birth we have about one million eggs, but by puberty, we have about 300,000 eggs. Under the influence of FSH and LH, each month a follicle gets stimulated to develop, and causes the release of one of those eggs, which may or may not get fertilized.

The question of whether or not prior testosterone therapy could harm eggs is something I first thought about a good ten years ago incidentally. We had a premature infant in our NICU with very severe hypospadias (defect of the penis) and his mother had previously lived as a man on testosterone for a number of years, (but had desisted and identified as female for several years before marrying and conceiving). We had academic discussions about this and both our consulting geneticist and endocrinologist felt his defects could be associated, but I never found any conclusive evidence. I still haven't found any studies specifically addressing this, but if any of you have a link, I'd be greatly interested.

In terms of teratogenic risks (harmful/birth defects), most research focuses on direct exposures to the fetus, rather than eggs, (with the exception of studies looking at radiation or mass environmental catastrophes). But, we do know a little bit from the outcomes of unintended exposures.

For example, women who have PCOS have abnormally high levels of androgens ("male" hormones). Most significantly, they often struggle with fertility and have higher rates of miscarriage. But, they also have higher rates of premature birth and birth defects. Could this be from the effects of PCOS during pregnancy? Or could this be from damage to their eggs from years of abnormal hormones? I'm not sure we know. journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Fulltext/2015/06000/Implications_of_Polycystic_Ovary_Syndrome_for.19.aspx

A concerning example of the profound effects of hormones is that of diethylstilbestrol (DES). DES is a synthetic estrogen that was given to pregnant women in the 1950's to 1970's. Not only did their babies have a number of concerning outcomes (birth defects, cancers of the reproductive organs), but their GRANDCHILDREN are affected as well! This "third generation" seems to have a higher risk of infertility, cancer, and possible birth defects (hypospadias).

Which brings us back to epigenetics... Epigenetics essentially looks at the way our genes interact with the environment. In other words, do some genes get turned off or on depending on their exposures? Could this be important for women transitioning and on testosterone? I think it might!

abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4528852&page=1

@GeorgeFayne

Exceptionally interesting and well explained. I would think this should be essential counselling for a person using hormones to transition from female to male. Should such individuals be freezing their eggs if they have any intention of using them? That said, IVF also carries risks.

Shrimpi - I wish you wouldn't feel like that. I really value input from scientists and doctors because you have such an important perspective to bring. There is so much faux science flying around - as well as issues that haven't been considered by laypeople - that people like you and Bowl who are able to clarify and correct are really valuable to discussion.

I'm sorry if you've found the whole experience confrontational - I think we are used to having some fairly robust discussions. And with a lot of people who claim medical qualifications!

@GeorgeFayne - thank you, too, for the informative and interesting points! It is always helpful to see information from people who know what they are talking about.

@Orchidinthesun

Thank you that's very kind. My debating was not perfect and I was confrontational too. Even what I just said came over as critical of mumsnet or mumsnet users when I read it back to myself and it wasn't my intention as I think this is a fabulous site with fabulous users. At the end of the day I'm sure that noone at all was trying to be personal and we all just want to be understood and listened to. And that if we were in a face to face encounter, it would be so much easier and less confrontational.

Thank you George - what a fantastic post.

I was thinking about DES after your post this morning (my time!) because I am a DES baby. I had colposcopies for vaginal cancer for years until I conceived (and then they decide you are unaffected in the UK). I do think it has had an effect on my children though although I'd rather not go into that here.

My poor mother feels absolutely awful about the impact it has had on her children (she took it with two of her pregnancies) but I'm not sure if she's aware of the impact on her grandchildren. It has been a very sobering reminder of the lack of understanding we have of fertility and the impact on developing foetuses over the longer term.

I don't know if you had a chance to read that article I linked to about the East German athletes who took T and steroids but it seems to indicate that the impact of some of the drugs impacted their eggs.

Completely irrelevant question - what happens to the 700,000 eggs that are lost before puberty?

The world's gone bloody mad ☹️Poor, poor child

^ that exactly. It’s terrible. Poor child indeed. When will this ridiculous nonsense stop?!

what happens to the 700,000 eggs that are lost before puberty?

My understanding is that they are simply absorbed by the body.

Genuinely meant Shrimpi - I hope you stick around :)

That's a lot of eggs to absorb! Mind you, if we kept a million until puberty, we'd never get menopause and I for one am quite glad that the whole period nonsense stops

I agree, this person is a female! It is a fact, she gave birth so therefore she is a female.
I personally don't think you should be able to change your sex full stop. You are what you are and no amount of operations etc can change that. Maybe what we should be working on is that sex/gender not defining who we are as people.
In other arguments.... I wonder, as she now wants to be this child's father, will she forgo her maternity leave, rights as a mother and all the other things that go with being a mother?? Because I bet that would be a whole new argument if her employer said well now your a father and not a mother you are only entitled to 2 weeks paternity...

smiley - I absolutely agree that what we need to work on is reducing the polarisation of gender roles and identities. I grew up in the 1970s and 80s and never had to assert agressive “femininity” in the way girls do today. But, back then, l’Oreal and its bedfellows hadn’t brainwashed us.

@Shrimpi
I don't think you are a liar! It was more of a vocabulary thing, (referring to virlized female genitalia as a penis or scrotum), but I agree that in cases of extreme CAH, that may be appropriate. May be that we're just splitting hair on semantics here.

I think the thing for me is that I'm tired of "intersex" individuals being discussed as though they somehow constitute a majority (or sizeable minority) of individuals with gender discongruence. Severe ambiguous genitalia is still quite rare, and fortunately, we're not stuck in the 1950's where a doctor arbitrarily assigned a gender. Between chromosomal studies and imaging, as well as medical and surgical therapy, we now have much better tools to give parents and clinicians to make those tough choices of how to raise these children. Doesn't mean it's always perfect, but it's SO much better!

Please stick around! We value your opinion!

@GeorgeFayne

I'm post nights and I'm pregnant. I think Im being a bit of a sensitive drama queen atm. I just want to apologise to everyone for digging my heels in over the technicalities of a stupid hypothetical that doesn't even matter anyway.

Believe it or not, I think a female fetus starts with something like 6 million eggs! I think the cells just die and get scavenged/recycled like other cells with limited lifespans.

@OrchidInTheSun
I bookmarked the link, and as soon as I can get my little one down for a nap, plan on reading it. Looks VERY interesting and is maybe some of the best information we might have on this topic? (I know they were given mega-doses of androgens. I'm curious as to how the dosing compares to that used for transmen.)

Not to derail the thread, but I'm equally sorry and fascinated (from a medical standpoint) by your status as a DES baby! The other day, my husband showed me this study linking at neurocognitive changes in third generation DES children: www.reuters.com/article/us-health-adhd-des/banned-pregnancy-drug-tied-to-adhd-generations-later-idUSKCN1IN2OW

Endocrine disruptors are so scary!

@Shrimpi
I've been there. I know how you feel. And I have to say that the feminist chat here on MN is a wonderful but TOUGH crowd. I love these intelligent women and have learned so much, but they demand logic and reason and evidence.

Pregnant here too ;) I get it.

Please stick around - we’ve all had our arses handed to us on at least one occasion (this is mumsnet, not the other one...)

FWIW I’m not anti trans at all. I don’t think the majority here are. They’re pro woman.
People with gender dysphoria exist, they need safeguards and society needs to be more accepting of people who don’t conform to many stereotypes.

But it’s this new aggressive push for self ID and the stripping out of women and children’s rights that’s got me - I can’t let it slide, I can’t not stand up against it. It’s got the potential to roll back a hundred years of fightbfor women’s rights. It’s got the potential to undo the safeguarding rules that were all brought in in the response to the real suffering abuse and death of children. This stuff is really important.

they demand logic and reason and evidence

@TerfsUp

I'm sorry but that is goading, and it's mean and I shouldn't have to be the one who says it. Isnt anyone else prepared to call that out?

People speak for themselves here, Shrimpie. If you have a problem with what they say and think it violates talk guidelines it is up to you to report it.

I will happily put my hand up and say that, yes, when debating an issue I demand logic and reason and evidence.

Edited to add: That was the point of my post at 20:15:04. I recognised myself in the comment they demand logic and reason and evidence.

If the shoe fits, etc etc.

Yeah time to back off Terfsup

I didn't mean offense by my comment about intelligent, logic discussion here and it wasn't targeted at any person or topic. I simply meant that the caliber of content here is quite high. I'm often simultaneously impressed and intimidated!

Is it possible we're all on the same page here? Perhaps Terfsup was just agreeing with my statement and essentially including herself as a person who expects logic and reason? Not attacking anyone?

I think this is interesting. But I have to say accusing the parent here of being narcissistic and saying the child will be lied to and should be removed or put on at risk register is ... well I think some of It hasn't been thought through.

Rather than considering that this persons feelings about being trans might not be genuine because they did such a "female" function, why are we not inclined to think that the drive to be a parent was so strong in this person that they were willing to undergo a distressful process which may have affected their mental health (dysphoria). Wouldn't this mean the child was badly wanted and therefore they would have really thought about the decision compared with an "oops" baby? Ive heard people say ivf couples are more likely to have really considered and invested time and finance into becoming parents therefore more likely to be good parents , could this situation not have the same vibe?

Next I think it's worth considering how truthful birth certificates are and WHY we feel uncomfortable about this type of "lie" when we accept other lies.

A lesbian couple for example , can both be named as parents on a birth certificate in the uk according to this : www.gov.uk/register-birth/who-can-register-a-birth
Please correct me if I've misunderstood this, but assuming I haven't we know it's physically impossible for two women to conceive , so why is this type of lie ok but the trans person is not? Is it just because people feel the birth mother being on there is so important ? Does anyone think the lesbians will automatically lie to the child and claim no man was involved in conception like some posters have assumed the trans person will lie to the child? Isn't this lie made more for parents than child? If it was just about responsibility for the child the second parent could adopt.

People have talked about genetic truth a lot as well. In the cases of surrogates , the birth mother is on the birth certificate , she has no genetic link at all to the child. Legally, a surrogate can change her mind and keep the child in the uk. Or obviously a child can be produced with donated eggs. So the child could have a birth certificate and grow up with a mother with no genetic link to them. Do we worry that mother could lie here and claim to be genetically linked causing child issues in future? Assuming we don't, does that mean people think trans person is more likely to lie or is it not about genetic correctness just birth correctness of a birth certificate? I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but we need to consider why we feel birth matters.

There is also the fact that no one knows without genetic testing whether the father is true on the birth certificate . And I have seen posts here where a woman in some difficult circumstances is encouraged not to put father on birth certificate even if he's known. So why are we ok with this lie being possible? And again, no one would assume the mother will be barmy enough to tell the child they were conceived through immaculate conception.

The important issues surrounding this for me is whether this will cause issues for the child growing up , what happens when they want a passport or citizenship abroad and only have dad on birth certificate . It could be argued the needs of the trans person here is selfish if it does. But would it not also cause administration issues if mothers legal documentation shows her as male ? So it would still be an issue admin wise either way, so then we have to consider why does one lie matter more than the other?

Also,I have seen someone question the quality of a woman's eggs after she has been taking testosterone for a while. There must be a significant number of people who have lifestyles that damage their eggs. Suggesting they shouldn't be allowed to breed is stepping into eugenics territory which again is pretty distasteful.

Some interesting points have been raised in this debate, but i think (some) people needed to separate their feelings of dislike and therefore assumptions of how a trans person will parent from the actual legal issues of having an incorrect birth certificate. They could be a terrible parent or the best parent ever. We have no idea from the information provided to us.