Baby could become first person born in England or Wales without a legal mother

[hungryhippie]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5817699/Baby-person-born-England-Wales-without-legal-mother.html

Hi, long time lurker here. Just came across this story online. If this ruling gets through I imagine it will open a whole other can of worms.
How can the law say the child has no Mother?

I don't understand transmen who get pregnant. Surely if you hate your female bits so much and it all feels so wrong why would you use them to their full advantage? Why have top surgery but not get your womb and ovaries taken out? Or is it all about appearances? How can you do the most female of functions and deny that you're female?
I sound judgemental but this stuff is hard to understand!

@superdamdy

Careful not to misquote.

There's a dear.

flashnazia I wonder this every time I hear something like this.

My issues with this are -

1] It is a legal fiction to ratify this person in law as the legal father, This transgender male carried and gave birth to their child. In the eyes of the law and biology this makes them the legal mother of the child.

2] You can't have it both ways. If someone decides to get pregnant and give birth to their child then that makes them for the term of that act the legal mother. They are making use of their female reproductive system and become the mother of that child. This still applies in the eyes of the law if they are using donor eggs and/or sperm. In essence they have agreed to be known as the child's legal mother. They cannot then turn around and state that they want to be known as the legal father instead... there are different rules and regulations around legal fatherhood and it is not as watertight as legal motherhood... due to the biological reality that it has to be a female with functioning reproductive system who carries a pregnancy to term and gives birth.

flashnazia it is a puzzle, I agree, but I guess it depends on the basis for their ‘dysphoria’. If they really suffer with essentially a form of dysmorphia - what people are thinking of with the ‘born in the wrong body’ feeling and truly believe their body is wrong, and shouldn’t have breasts/ovaries/uterus/vagina, then yes voluntarily going through pregnancy and birth is pretty incompatible with that on a theoretical level.

However if their gender dysphoria - dis-ease with their gender, that is, how others perceive them and treat them, stems from essentially a deeply ingrained internalised misogyny, existing and developing in a society which treats and sees women a certain way, not seeing themselves that way, and rather than coming to the conclusion that society is wrong (smash the patriarchy=radical feminism), coming to the conclusion that they are wrong and need to change their appearance in order to be treated and seen differently....then pregnancy, as a temporary state, and an unavoidable process when submitting to the deep seated biological urge to reproduce, could be an acceptable ‘price’, because they don’t really believe they are actually male, they just want to be seen & treated as male.

TL;DR yes I think it can be more about appearance (and therefore how you are viewed by others).

I don't get it. Correct me if I'm wrong but transgender means you are born one gender but feel you are the other gender. You are completely uncomfortable with who you are and how your body is built and functions.

Surely then you wouldn't consider using your body for the most natural and amazing thing it can do.. Give new life. Surely you would think no I can't do that I'm a man not a woman.

I think this person is either very confused about who they are and need help or just out to make headlines

If the mother declared she was God before or after birth she would be sectioned and the child removed.

Well, no, if space/provision is available, by preference women with postnatal psychosis are sectioned in a mother & baby unit and supported as best as possible to stay together whilst the mother recovers, and if that’s not possible, the child wouldn’t be automatically ‘removed’, they’d be cared for by the father or other extended family until the mother is home. Same as if she was hospitalised with any other illness.

Please don’t co-opt real situations that new mothers in mental health crisis face to make your argument. However we feel about the reasons behind people claiming a transgender identity, it is clearly not the same as the situation you describe.

Ugh I woke up in the night thinking about this legal case. The only person in this who can be excused for thinking that their own interests are one and the same with the parent’s, is the newborn baby. Such awful, reckless narcissism to bring it.

I can’t see how this case would succeed legally but if it did, logically the next case would be led by a male-bodied misogynistic TRA wanting to have their name down on their child’s birth certificate as the legal mother.

Thus erasing the woman who gave birth to the child out of legal recognition, and erasing the truth of the child’s history.

Setting the course for women’s unique biological contribution, (sometimes used against them) as the group of people who have the ability to gestate and give birth.

Stopping women being the correct group to be recognised for female-intended economic benefits like maternity leave, or to be the automatic receipt of child benefit.

Stopping women being the correct group for whom medical specialist care should be commissioned in a resource-strapped health service, recognising the needs of their female bodies in connection with pregnancy, the birth and postnatal period.
It’s a bloody scary prospect.

Cwenthryth The child/children would be kept away from the mother all the time they were maintaining they were God. Under 12 months could join them on a mother and baby unit for recovery once they had stopped declaring they were God. Older children would be kept away until the mother had stopped saying things considered emotionally damaging to the child.

Presumably this person is going to give birth and experience the hormonal rush and the overwhelming desire to protect their child. They want to take some.of the best bits of being a woman then deny they ever happened. The interests of the child should be paramount. This person should be recorded as the mother . What they choose to call themselves after is up to them.

Setting the course for women’s unique biological contribution, (sometimes used against them) as the group of people who have the ability to gestate and give birth ... ’to be erased’ that should have said.

Also if legal ‘mother’ or ‘’father’ (birth certificated) self ID became allowed, how would that stop ANYONE (without a biological or nurturing connection of some kind) from making a claim as legal parent? It would be wide open to abuse. As PP said, a child trafficker’s dream.

It would destroy the rebuttable legal presumption of legal fatherhood of married men. This question would presumably only be able to be settled by bringing in a new model of birth certificates providing genetic mother and father details which for lots of reasons is opening a whole other can of worms for the child undermining their privacy and legal interests and protections. It would be fundamentally anti-child to go down this route.

just to note the other thread on this: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3271504-Transgender-man-gives-birth-and-wants-to-be-recorded-as-babys-father?pg=2&order=

I hope the child has a solicitor representing their case here. After all it is about the child’s birth certificate which is nothing to do with the mum.

Mossandclover I really hope so too. Services must be involved and representing the child, I’m hoping that it’s just the case that the paper can’t report this to try and protect the child.

Great post chattylion

Yes, I'm wondering who is representing the child's interests in this case. The article doesn't say.

Great posts ChattyLions

From the article linked in the other thread: A judge on Thursday heard preliminary argument from lawyers representing the man and lawyers representing The Registrar General for England and Wales at a High Court hearing in London.

Again no mention of anyone representing the child's interests.

Section 12 of the GRA is the relevant law:

Parenthood
The fact that a person’s gender has become the acquired gender under this Act does not affect the status of the person as the father or mother of a child.

This doesn't strike me as ideal for the child.

That's irrelevant because it is more important that trans people's feelings are the most important thing, not biology, society or anything else / anyone else.

I find it interesting the parent is represented as is the registrar but the child has no representation.

Socially I have no problem with a mother wanting to be called Dad - hell she could call herself a jam sandwich for all I care - but creating a legal fiction around it, no way.
The law is reason, free from passion. If we start changing bits to suit our feelz we are on dangerous ground IMHO.

^Stopping women being the correct group for whom medical specialist care should be commissioned in a resource-strapped health service, recognising the needs of their female bodies in connection with pregnancy, the birth and postnatal period.
It’s a bloody scary prospect.^

Women's, children's and gender identity services are already lumped together by the NHS in terms of specialised care. They are discussed at the same meeting.

Totally agree with everyone on here who has said this is narcissism at its finest, totally disregard for the child here.

I feel sorry for that registrar too that had to have that initial conversation with the Mother

Just shows how for some Trans, it is all about appearances and their own ego.

Anyway, what I wanted to raise was;
Would this have the potential to open the legal floor for TIMs to lay claim over foetuses as they would be able to identify as the Mother?

It's always been a very clear red line with me and my DD's transgender Father. (Who she still calls Dad, what with him being her Dad). I do my best to be civilised but I would never tolerate him attempting to pass himself off as her Mother. That's the one aspect of womanhood I will not allow him to appropriate or take from me.

Presumably this person is going to give birth and experience the hormonal rush and the overwhelming desire to protect their child.

They have. They brought the baby to the hearing. But it seems this gender identity obsession is the key thing here.