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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Baby could become first person born in England or Wales without a legal mother

206 replies

hungryhippie · 07/06/2018 17:48

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5817699/Baby-person-born-England-Wales-without-legal-mother.html

Hi, long time lurker here. Just came across this story online. If this ruling gets through I imagine it will open a whole other can of worms.
How can the law say the child has no Mother?

OP posts:
terfinginthevoid · 07/06/2018 22:23

Sorry thread moved on since I started posting.

Jamieandwordswo, you've explained what I've been trying to work through in my head, why the birth mother's identity is the key information on a birth certificate.

BatShite · 07/06/2018 22:24

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Jamieandwordswo · 07/06/2018 22:24

Imagine the implications for child trafficking if birth certificates with no mother recorded become legal.

SuperDandy · 07/06/2018 22:29

Picasso "?... gave her explanation about being goaded and frustrated. You are also telling us about your feelings about posters who are goading and frustrating you. Quid pro quo?"

I agree with you, up to a point. To be fair, I was referring only to the post P made upthread earlier this evening, not to anything previously said in other circus, so keeping it directly about this thread.

I don't think she's posted anything retracting that one, and I'm still genuinely interested to know if others on this board think it's ok to say the person in this case "should not have children"

"I challenged you for going straight to Section 28" - sorry but that wasn't me, I didn't reference it at all. But that's a whole nother argument, so maybe let's agree to disagree, before I get bashed about for derailing.

SameTerfDifferentUserName · 07/06/2018 22:29

*Millions of children have no citizenship or legal identity globally because mothers in many countries cannot register a birth alone. That is why it is a feminist issue and a human rights issue that the birth mother is the primary piece of information to get a baby a legal birth certificate.

That someone should start a legal case against such an important right as the birth mother being what allows legal registration is selfish beyond belief, given how important that principle is to establish globally for all children.*

I didn’t know that Blush

I love this board, every day’s a school day.

LaSqrrl · 07/06/2018 22:30

DailyFail: He says forcing him to register as the child's 'mother' breaches his human right to respect for private and family life.

And being pregnant did not?
Kind of blows the gender thing themselves, so what is this person complaining about?

Can't have it both ways.

placemats · 07/06/2018 22:31

It's a bit like when someone discovers their sister is really their mother.

Picassospaintbrush · 07/06/2018 22:33

Millions of children have no citizenship or legal identity globally because mothers in many countries cannot register a birth alone. That is why it is a feminist issue and a human rights issue that the birth mother is the primary piece of information to get a baby a legal birth certificate.

It is. It absolutely is.

plan-international.org/birth-registration/count-every-child-birth-registration

placemats · 07/06/2018 22:38

Yes, thank you Jamieandwordswo.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 07/06/2018 22:39

More mental than the mental thing.

Just discussing it with my 15 year old son. 'Stranger than fiction' was his summary.

SameTerfDifferentUserName · 07/06/2018 22:43

Thanks for that link.

I’m now even more enraged by this ‘human rights’ action by this ‘parent’.

Picassospaintbrush · 07/06/2018 22:47

I’m now even more enraged by this ‘human rights’ action by this ‘parent’.

I know, while these whiney navel gazers disappear up their own fundament.....

Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 22:48

It's a bit like when someone discovers their sister is really their mother

Ted Bundy apparently found out his grandmother was his mother in his teens and it's often cited in biographies as one reason (of other arguably more important ones) he was psychologically fucked up. So it's not a weird OTT idea that it's not good for children to be lied to about their parents/origins but clearly one many people share.

SemperIdem · 07/06/2018 22:53

This is appalling. Biological fact should not be overridden by self identify.

Hotdogjumpingfrogs · 07/06/2018 23:03

I thought the mother was always the person who carried the baby. So donated egg would still be the birth mother, if you use a surrogate in the UK, she is the birth mother regardless of who's egg it was, she has parental responsibility and goes on the birth certificate, parental responsibility is then signed over to the intended parents.

You allow this it opens up all sorts of doors for what can go on the certificate. It's a BIRTH certificate it's supposed to say who you are and who you were born to.

ChattyLion · 07/06/2018 23:19

Not RTFT and not a lawyer but I can’t see how this case could succeed, legally speaking.

Article 8 of the Human Rights Act (right to respect for private and family life), incorporates the right to personal identity. There is also Article 14, the anti-discrimination provision.

As I understand it, this combination of rights would seek to defend the rights of all individuals to the information necessary for an understanding of their personal identity.

So in this scenario as the parent you would be saying to your child that you are a man who was pregnant with them, also that you were a man before they were born, despite you being at that point being able to make eggs/carry a pregnancy, which only females’ bodies can do.

and you would be saying to your child that they were either born from your female ‘man’s’ body (or were born from a surrogate’s female body, the female who had carried your female ‘man’s’ egg that you had added male sperm to into an embryo and then asked the surrogate to carry for you to grow into a baby).

But then after a relatively short amount of time out in the wider world your child would understand that this claim that you are a man, and were a man before they were born, is completely at odds with anything you are telling him about your part in their genetic heritage, conception and/or gestation and birth. This will be very distressing for the child who will feel misled about personal, fundamental truths to their identity. They are not going to give a crap what the GRA certificate says, if they haven’t been told the truth they will be very distressed.

We know this is true, from closed adoption which is why we don’t do this any more in the UK-we don’t keep the fact of the adoption secret from the child because we have seen that allowing people to grow up not being told the truth of their origins can be very emotionally damaging to them.

This is not to say that people can’t explain to their kids about their transition to ‘live as’ a man or a woman in an age-appropriate way. Nor to say that people can’t ask their kids to treat them in a way that feels appropriate to the parent’s ideas of who they are.

But it can’t ever be OK to pretend to your child that you have always been a man or always been a woman, when your relationship to them is living proof of the biological facts.

Putting father on your child’s birth certificate to match what it says on your GRA, is an obfuscation of biological fact by legal fiction.

There isn’t anything wrong with legal fictions per se, but only when they are beneficial. This would not be a legal fiction of advantage to the child, and it well could be of enormous emotional detriment to them if they are not told of their parent’s history and transition.

Even if children are told of the transition history by their trans parent/s, the mother as listed on the birth certificate (i think) should be the woman-bodied-person who gave birth to them.

(If in a surrogacy arrangement then there are legal provisions available to transfer the legal parenthood from the surrogate to the intended mother).

This seems most respectful of the child and most likely to contribute to the information necessary for an understanding of their personal identity as is the human right of everyone to have available to them.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 07/06/2018 23:20

This is another attempt to juggle up language, again.

Make vocabulary meaningless.

ChattyLion · 07/06/2018 23:30

Sorry for that long saga above.

Can’t interested parties ask the court to make points of argument in cases of public interest such as in a case like this? I wonder if that is happening in this case with the general Register office (they are part of passports)?
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 23:36

But then after a relatively short amount of time out in the wider world your child would understand that this claim that you are a man, and were a man before they were born, is completely at odds with anything you are telling him about your part in their genetic heritage, conception and/or gestation and birth. This will be very distressing for the child who will feel misled about personal, fundamental truths to their identity. They are not going to give a crap what the GRA certificate says, if they haven’t been told the truth they will be very distressed.

This exactly. I wish the wokesters would engage their collective brain a tad more.

Picassospaintbrush · 07/06/2018 23:39

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

They may not mean to, but they do.

They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,

Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.

spontaneousgiventime · 07/06/2018 23:43

I do absolutely confess, if I were of child baring age now I would not have children. I look at all my grand kids and I am more terrified than I have ever been.

Bejazzled · 07/06/2018 23:43

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Polynerd · 07/06/2018 23:47

I'm finding the whole tone of this debate somewhat distasteful tbh. I am a reader and occasional posters on the FWR board and trans men are very, very rarely discussed. But oh look - when it comes to pregnancy they are fair game. And that has unpleasant overtones of the abortion debate, in which the woman's body is a matter of public, rather than private, issue.

WhatTheWatersShowedMe · 07/06/2018 23:53

Just wanted to thank @Jamieandwordswo for a frankly brilliant, succinct and educational post.

Peachydream · 07/06/2018 23:55

Forgive my naivety but if this case were to succeed would it not essentially 'legally' recognise that a person can change sex, which is a biological impossibility, as well as gender.

To me it's a question of whether the parents rights superseded the child's. This legal document belongs to the child, and surely the child has a right for it to reflect their correct details.

I would be interested to see if the child has their own court appointed representative as really this is 2 issues, the parents needs in conflict with the child's rights.

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