Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Baby could become first person born in England or Wales without a legal mother

206 replies

hungryhippie · 07/06/2018 17:48

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5817699/Baby-person-born-England-Wales-without-legal-mother.html

Hi, long time lurker here. Just came across this story online. If this ruling gets through I imagine it will open a whole other can of worms.
How can the law say the child has no Mother?

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 07/06/2018 21:18

He's had the surgery and is now legally a man

Nope. It looks like a mastectomy, not genital surgery.

SuperDandy · 07/06/2018 21:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SomeDyke · 07/06/2018 21:26

This case is actually another nice example of the difference between biological reality, and social relations. So, just as being male or female (sex) is a biological fact, but someone may want to be treated as a masculine or feminine person by society (gender), so we need the amended birth certificate of the GRC (but still kept on record elsewhere that this has been done). So, for social reasons, you can get a birth certificate that accords with your presented gender.

But in this case, the amendment would not be for the benefit of the person for whom the certificate is issued. There is no procedure in place for you to change the birth certificates of someone you give birth to. If it were allowed, it deprives the child of correct factual knowledge about their parentage. Just as if a transwoman who fathered a child wanted to refuse to be named on that childs birth certificate because by so doing that would out them as male. Well, in that case I would say, if you didn't want to be outed as male, you shouldn't go around fertilising eggs with your sperm.

A child, however produced/adopted/whatever, I think has a right to be able to access their biological origins, however uncomfortable fathers and mothers may get (one reason why so hard to get sperm donors nowadays). So, the biological relationship is what it is, even if you want to have the 'social' relationship to a child as a 'father', and even if you might someday have to deal with explaining the complications.

I suppose, as regards the child, the closest comparisons are like cases where a child later discovers that then person they thought was their mother was actually their grandmother, and their supposed sister was actually their mother. These situations, although easier for the adults concerned are not always easiest for the child, who has a right to know where they came from if they want, however complicated or convoluted.

MrsToddsShortcut · 07/06/2018 21:29

No, Posie didn't say that. She said 'that woman shouldn't have children' not that she shouldn't be allowed to. Not the same.

And I've reported you for trying to start a bun fight on another poster.

NotMeOhNo · 07/06/2018 21:30

Yes we are beholden to the dictionary.
Sorry, not very woke are we?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 07/06/2018 21:33

The last thing I was thinking about when I had a newborn was my feelings about my body (or anything else really for that matter). I was primarily interested in my child and their needs and I think it's pretty abnormal not to feel this way. It strikes me as hugely narcissistic and entitled to do this and a clear signal that this child's needs do NOT come first to this parent (whatever they want to be called seems pretty secondary to that glaringly obvious issue to be honest).

Also, how on earth can a birth certificate (something that most of us only look at once in a blue moon) be more upsetting than actually being pregnant for 9 months?

Finally if all this is true I find it a bit mind boggling that the fertility clinic went along with it. The hoops DH and I had to jump through and the forms we had to sign when we had IVF .... I suspect the legal ramifications haven't been considered fully. I wonder if there's anything in the donor paperwork that indicates they may be donating to a transman and I wonder how many donors would sanction this.

SuperDandy · 07/06/2018 21:35

SomeDyke makes a good argument there.

I can't see how it could be justified to have a birth certificate system that allowed a genetically female birth parent who carried the child to be recorded as father.

But then, isn't it possible already to have mother and mother on birth certificate for example, for a married lesbian parent couple? Does a certificate in that case show which mother is genetically the parent?

And what happens for donated eggs? The mother on the birth certificate bore the pregnancy but is genetically uninvolved.

Or where the mother certifies birth with father not present or unknown and chooses not to include his name, meaning the child has no record on their certificate of their genetically make parent.

SuperDandy · 07/06/2018 21:36

Sheesh, not trying to start a bun fight. I asked what people thought and did they agree. Since when is that not allowed?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 07/06/2018 21:38

And what SomeDyke said. It's basically lying on someone else's birth certificate.

Panda81 · 07/06/2018 21:48

I'm not familiar with what gets recorded on a birth certificate when the baby's biological father is a sperm donor.

I'm a solo mum by choice using a donor and the father is left blank. The ID release comes from the HFEA if DS chooses to find out when he's older.

If I was in a couple with a sperm donor then the father on the certificate would be the parenting father. There is no reference to sperm donation at all (same with egg donation, and I also presume surrogacy?).

In theory a couple could not tell their child their biological background and the child would never know. So I think this puts in to question what is the purpose of a birth certificate. Is it to identify the parents or the biological parents. If the father's biological details don't need to be given then do the mothers? Should we be putting reference to biological parents on BCs (even if it's only stating 'donor' but then the child will always know and can contact HFEA).

E.g biological mother (me), biological father (donor), parent 1 (me) parent 2 (blank)?

Ignore me if the certificate says birth mother or anything like that. I'm going from memory that it just says mother.

Moonkissedlegs · 07/06/2018 21:49

The concerning thing is, whichever way this is explained to the child as they grow up, in whatever age-appropriate ways, it is likely to be telling them something that is a fiction, and outside reality, particularly if the story is 'your dad is a man, and he was pregnant with you and gave birth to you'.

Exactly.

Gay couples don't lie to their kids, they explain things in an age appropriate way. Women who use sperm donors don't (or shouldnt anyway) tell their kids that they conceived them on their own, they explain things in an age appropriate way.

If you want to lie on your own child's birth certificate to validate your own feelings, then how are you going to explain any of it to them when they are older?

Out of interest actually, because I don't know, what does go on the birth certificate of the child of a gay couple?

Picassospaintbrush · 07/06/2018 21:49

Are the rest of you really ok with Posie saying that? Do you agree with Posie?

Posie gave her explanation about being goaded and frustrated. You are also telling us about your feelings about posters who are goading and frustrating you. Quid pro quo?

I challenged you for going straight to Section 28 as that is a massive over statement, in my mind. I left it at that.

I know some posters here do throw out labels but most of us skip and ignore those really and concentrate on the conversation. I agree with you. Labelling is pointless and unnecessary (and the point of the GC argument), the most productive tactic to use here is an imaginary mute button when it happens.

Lichtie · 07/06/2018 21:59

They are hardly factual evidence anyway. I'm sure I read somewhere that 15% of fathers listed on birth certificates are not the biological father, not to mention those that are not listed at all.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/06/2018 22:02

I'm sure I read somewhere that 15% of fathers listed on birth certificates are not the biological father, not to mention those that are not listed at all

This is true, but isn't the mother listed always the mother?

Panda81 · 07/06/2018 22:04

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine the birth mother, not necessarily the biological mother. (E.g egg donation). It sure about surrogacy though?

Lichtie · 07/06/2018 22:09

This is true, but isn't the mother listed always the mother?

So as long as that bits right the rest is OK to be wrong?

Jamieandwordswo · 07/06/2018 22:09

The birth mother is always on the original birth certificate, even in surrogacy cases.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/06/2018 22:10

In surrogacy the birth mother is the mother on the birth certificate

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/06/2018 22:12

So as long as that bits right the rest is OK to be wrong?

No, of course not. If the wrong father is on the birth certificate, and this is known, as far as I know they can be removed from the certificate.

Jamieandwordswo · 07/06/2018 22:15

The purpose of a birth certificate is to give the child a legal identity. An identity not in the feelz sense but in the sense of having legal rights to citizenship.

Millions of children have no citizenship or legal identity globally because mothers in many countries cannot register a birth alone. That is why it is a feminist issue and a human rights issue that the birth mother is the primary piece of information to get a baby a legal birth certificate.

That someone should start a legal case against such an important right as the birth mother being what allows legal registration is selfish beyond belief, given how important that principle is to establish globally for all children.

terfinginthevoid · 07/06/2018 22:15

It comes down to what is the purpose of the birth certificate. And why do we record parent's names on them.

They have never been purely records of biological fact. The mother's name is biological fact, but the father's name isn't. No proof of paternity is required before registering a birth. And babies with no father's name on the certificate still have biological fathers, who may or may not fulfil all or part of the social role of father.

Children, (apart now from those born from donated sperm) have never had the right to know who their biological father is, because biology doesn't make that clear.
The only incontrovertible biological fact is the name of the woman who gave birth to them.

spontaneousgiventime · 07/06/2018 22:15

The person who carries and gives birth to a child is the mother. It is biologically impossible to be any other way. A man can't birth a baby out of his lady penis but a woman is given the specific equipment so she can.

SuperDandy · 07/06/2018 22:22

Ok, so what about donated eggs - does anyone know what goes on birth certificate in that scenario? I've got a couple of people I could ask but it seems an intrusive question to just drop on them.

BatShite · 07/06/2018 22:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Jamieandwordswo · 07/06/2018 22:23

The mother on the birth certificate is the birth mother.

Swipe left for the next trending thread