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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Government response to the petition...

255 replies

LazyTuesdayAfternoon · 05/06/2018 16:30

I don't know if there's a thread about this already, sorry if I've missed it.

What do people make of the response?

It seems quite proportionate to me but, as always, I guess the devil will be in the detail...

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Thread gallery
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Imchlibob · 05/06/2018 16:31

Link?

LazyTuesdayAfternoon · 05/06/2018 16:33

link

OP posts:
KittiesInsane · 05/06/2018 16:34

This bit:
'Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim' needs to be publicised to schools.

spontaneousgiventime · 05/06/2018 16:35

The Government has not yet decided whether or not to introduce a self-declaration model, and will not change the Equality Act 2010 provisions which support organisations to run single sex services.

Read the response in full
The Government has committed to consult on how best to reform the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) 2004. This Act sets out the process by which trans people can legally change their gender. We will publish this consultation in due course. All members of the public will be able to respond to the consultation. Once the consultation has closed and the Government has carefully considered the responses, only then will we decide how to reform the GRA.

Gender recognition is a devolved issue and the Scottish Government ran a separate consultation, which closed on 1 March 2018.

We have been clear since announcing our intention to consult on the GRA that we will ask about how we can make the process of applying for a Gender Recognition Certificate less bureaucratic and intrusive for trans people. That does not necessarily mean we are proposing self-declaration of gender. The Government will consider the results of the consultation carefully before making any decision on how to reform the GRA. We are clear that we have no intention of amending the Equality Act 2010, the legislation that allows for single sex spaces. Any GRA reform will not change the protected characteristics in the Equality Act nor the exceptions under the Equality Act that allow provision for single and separate sex spaces.

The Government does not intend to change the safeguarding processes that are currently used in refuges and healthcare services. Providers of women-only services can continue to provide services in a different way, or even not provide services to trans individuals, provided it is objectively justified on a case-by-case basis. The same can be said about toilets, changing rooms or single sex activities. Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.

We are committed to a respectful and evidence-based discussion, and, for this reason, we have engaged in many pre-consultation meetings with a range of stakeholders including women’s groups, charities and service providers. We will continue to do so during the consultation. The consultation offers an opportunity for women from all backgrounds to be heard.

As part of our evidence gathering, we are looking at the experiences of other countries who have different gender recognition models. There are countries, such as Ireland, Malta, and Belgium that have adopted a self-declaration model, making use of statutory declarations. We are also looking at countries that do not have a full self-declaration model, such as the Netherlands.

We want to emphasise that any reform of the GRA will not mean reform to the medical treatment that trans people receive, and the age at which they can receive this. Access to treatment on the NHS, including cross-sex hormones (which the NHS allows from 16) and surgery (which the NHS allows from 18), is not regulated by the GRA, but decided on by clinicians. Any GRA reform will not change this.

When the GRA was introduced, it was considered a world-leading piece of legislation. Whilst it has worked well in many ways, over the last decade it has been viewed as outdated. We have heard from many trans people that the current requirements feel overly intrusive and bureaucratic. It includes the need to provide a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and a second medical report of any treatment, proof of having lived for at least two years in their acquired gender, the approval of their spouse if married, as well as the fee to apply, and any associated costs with obtaining supporting evidence. Furthermore, trans people are already able to more easily change their name and gender in their passport and driving license. Streamlining the process of changing their legal gender on their birth certificate, so that they are recognised legally in their acquired gender, would help trans people to have all their identity documents match.

The process of gaining a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), as set out in the Gender Recognition Act, is a Government service that is not working well for the people it is designed for. Only 4,850 GRCs have been issued since the Act came into force. Our research shows that trans people find the process too bureaucratic and hard to use. We therefore propose improving this service, but want to ensure we only do so after a full consultation, to allow us to hear from trans people, and also from women’s groups, faith groups, LGBT groups, young people’s organisations, charities, refuges, and many more individuals and organisations, so that we can decide how best to make these reforms.

The Government is committed to improving the position of women and girls, and supports their rights, safety, privacy and dignity. We are also committed to improving the position of trans people and supporting their rights. We are confident that advancing the rights of trans people does not have to compromise women’s rights, and will work with all groups to ensure this.

Government Equalities Office

LazyTuesdayAfternoon · 05/06/2018 16:36

Absolutely agree, Kitties.

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RogerAllamsFangirl · 05/06/2018 16:45

I think this needs to be publicised everywhere where separation of the sexes is relevant. It should be sent to Swim England, to the GG, the YMCA, to local pools, to Hampstead Heath, to the Labour Party and every branch (not sure how much store they will set by Gov policy mind!) and to HR departments.

Noqont · 05/06/2018 16:47

Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim' needs to be publicised to schools.

So the opposite to what Mermaids are advocating then?!?

R0wantrees · 05/06/2018 16:48

'Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim' needs to be publicised to schools.

From the Govt. response: "Gender recognition is a devolved issue and the Scottish Government ran a separate consultation, which closed on 1 March 2018."

There is an important current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268545-Twitter-thread-no-impact-assessments-carried-out-for-school-guidance-in-Scotland

SweetGrapes · 05/06/2018 16:48

Sounds mostly sensible response to me. And cautious.

Agree with pp - the EA provision needs to be publicised.

The case by case part didn't feel right though. If refuges need to justify case to case, they will waste precious resources.

Providers of women-only services can continue to provide services in a different way, or even not provide services to trans individuals, provided it is objectively justified on a case-by-case basis.

LazyTuesdayAfternoon · 05/06/2018 16:48

Exactly, Noqont.

It's actually really good to have that in writing...

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LazyTuesdayAfternoon · 05/06/2018 16:51

Sweet I think they have to say that to an extent. They have included the caveats that support can be provided in a different way or not at all.

That is the important bit.

In fact, I think the most important thing I am reading from that is that, whatever the TRAs would have everyone believe, the government does not believe, as is not advocating for, Transwomen are Women.

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R0wantrees · 05/06/2018 16:56

The case by case part didn't feel right though. If refuges need to justify case to case, they will waste precious resources.

So will that mean that being born male will not in itself be able to be considered as a signifier of risk?

Prisons also carry out case by case assesments, they have access to greater resources, time, ongoing assessments as well as pre-sentence reports.

Reported in The Times:
"Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association, told The Mail on Sunday: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence . . . To put men who declare they are women into women’s prisons would be very damaging.”
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269144-Prison-Governors-speak-directly-of-their-concerns-for-vulnerable-women

Ereshkigal · 05/06/2018 16:56

They clearly don't. It's good to have that spelled out.

KittiesInsane · 05/06/2018 16:56

That, if upheld, is an OK position, I'd say. It leaves the field clear for trans people to start campaigning for better provision, where appropriate, separate from their own sex to avoid humiliation and from their identified gender to avoid the risks to the more vulnerable party.

Ereshkigal · 05/06/2018 16:59

We need to work on organisations and put pressure on them to consider women's rights to privacy and dignity and safeguarding issues as much as the feelings of trans identified males.

2rebecca · 05/06/2018 17:09

That's not bad. It's very fence sitty but probably better than I expected

R0wantrees · 05/06/2018 17:13

There is an important statement on WPUK website:

"I’m writing as a feminist who has devoted over two decades of my life to ending violence against women (VAW). I’ve worked in frontline services in both domestic abuse and sexual violence services across the country and now I head up a VAW sector charity...

Unfortunately, in recent months the changes to the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the incredibly toxic debate around the issue of ‘gender self ID’ has left many more women under a heavy veil of silence, particularly for those of us who work in the VAW sector. The dark, uncomfortable irony of this silence is not lost on me, nor is it lost on the many women in the sector I have recently spoken to about this issue.

As someone who has worked with many survivors of violence over the last two decades, I am terrified – both professionally and personally – about the impact of self ID on ensuring safe spaces are available to women who have experienced and are escaping male violence. Even without the legal changes to the GRA, gender inclusive policies are already happening in many areas, these changes are ahead of the law and already upon us..." continues

womansplaceuk.org/the-silencing-of-feminists-silences-survivors/

HelpTheTigers · 05/06/2018 17:15

I am concerned about what may happen if Corbyn gets in as his views are very different. Sad to say, I'm a leftie and desperately disappointed in my Party of choice!
The TRAs are also insistent that they will be going after the Equalities Act, which should not happen if the government sticks to its guns on the GRA, but may be taken on board by a different government.
However on the face of it, the government response seems to be encouraging. Time will tell, so the more that the issues are publicised, the better.

R0wantrees · 05/06/2018 17:20

I think that the recent reports in mainstream press mean that it would be impossible for any government to push through reforms without open consultation.

In the event of a snap general election, any indication that Labour might do so would be used against them.

Also see: blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

OneHourTwentyFourMinutes · 05/06/2018 17:21

Thank you Amy and everyone that organised signatures.

So we have one political party that doesn't believe that trans women are actual women, that they are trans identified males?

jellyfrizz · 05/06/2018 17:23

Any GRA reform will not change the protected characteristics in the Equality Act nor the exceptions under the Equality Act that allow provision for single and separate sex spaces.

This is good to hear. Very clear about single sex spaces and that protected characteristics will stay as 'gender reassignment' rather than 'gender identity' and 'sex' stays 'sex' rather than morphing into 'gender' (as some organisations already incorrectly state).

Theinconstantgardener · 05/06/2018 17:24

The case by case part didn't feel right though. If refuges need to justify case to case, they will waste precious resources.
Agreed. Also
Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim
How will legitimate aim be justified. Who will decide? I can see that being challenged byTIMs detirmined to enter these spaces.

R0wantrees · 05/06/2018 17:25

So we have one political party that doesn't believe that trans women are actual women, that they are trans identified males?

The narrative needs to change so that politicians assert the rights of women & children as well as the independence of professionals eg medical, criminal justice, eduaction and social care.

Noqont · 05/06/2018 17:27

We need to work on organisations and put pressure on them to consider women's rights to privacy and dignity and safeguarding issues as much as the feelings of trans identified males.

Agreed.

MIdgebabe · 05/06/2018 17:29

Thanks for posting op.