The Big Questions BBC 'should you be able to self declare your gender?'

[R0wantrees]

On at 10am

Heather was first, Jane was 2nd to speak.

Fuck sake!

It's a car crash.

Lots of non believing faces.

The people in agreement with self id don't seem to have any idea about any of it. The blonde woman talking about limbic systems used the phrase "sex change", another says "living as a woman" uncritically, another says "they'll be getting counselling so it's okay".

These people have no idea what they are arguing for, at all. They are just saying what they think is the right thing to say

I'm catching up now!

Heather is good! JF is not! But that young woman... I feel sorry for her!

Currently JF is using their 'soft voice'...

Heather may be good giving talks over a longer period of time to people who understand the academic terms of the discussion but she is not suited to giving short answers in a time limit to a mixed audience in straightforward language.

Honestly she is just being really confusing. I think she is feeling uncomfortable and I get why but this is not the format for her.

Why is Jane Fae always picked for these things? Doesn't JF has a v dodgy campaigning history when she was a man?

Heather was terrible.

I feel awful saying this but people going onto these programmes need some Media training.

You have very, very limited time, you need to get the main points across in a very simple way, accessible to the general public. That is not being achieved at the moment.

This is the first televised debate I've seen.

Heather completely wasted her opportunity as the first speaker.
JF came across far better than Heather.

Re Jane Fae's point about where Heather might (speculatively/hypothetically) be sent in female prison estate if she threw Jane in front of a car etc.... (interesting that Jane chose such an example by way of illustrating point)

from Fairplay4Women some background
fairplayforwomen.com/impact-gra-reform-uk-prisons/
(extract)
"If a male prisoner obtains legal gender recognition and is legally female the prison service is obliged to treat them just like any other female. This means they must be located in a women’s prison. They can only be held in a male prison if they are deemed too dangerous to be safely contained. Women’s prisons are not designed for extremely dangerous prisoners and most are equivalent to closed low security male prisons or open prisoners. The highest security women’s prison is Bronzefield and currently holds only 17 women in a restricted status wing. If a woman was ever considered too dangerous for restricted status they can be moved to women’s unit within a top security category A male prison. There are currently no women prisoners this dangerous. This rule applies to any female – biological women or legally female trans-gender prisoners." ....continues

I’m in a café right now, and this is on the tv on silent. Thought I’d come on here and see what they were actually talking about I’ll watch it properly on catchup later, but just to report - interesting exercise in body language watching it on silent. HBE looks worried, serious, earnest, and open. JF looks smug, patronising, intimidating and closed off - literally sitting there with both arms and legs crossed and can pretty much see the tutting.

TBH at this stage I’m just happy the issue is being openly discussed in the media.

These people have no idea what they are arguing for, at all. They are just saying what they think is the right thing to say

This is the crux of it really.

Heather was very lucky that Nicky Campbell gave her an easy time. That was not a clear explanation of the issues from Heather (but it was balanced by Jane Fae being confusing too).

ODFOD! They have a bessie mate who is trans. OF COURSE THEY KNOW!

Swelp me, they are all so fucking desperate to be nice!

That was a real waste of an opportunity. Julie Bindel or Magdalen Berns, plain speakers, would have been for better choices for this show. No offence to Heather, it's just not an environment she shines in, and that works badly for all of us.

I think some important points were made. Its good to see increasing amounts of more open discussion which is calm and respectful.

Heather may be good giving talks over a longer period of time to people who understand the academic terms of the discussion but she is not suited to giving short answers in a time limit to a mixed audience in straightforward language.

Yep. Sigh.

Most people I know will have just looked at that - both JF and HBE - and gone "what the fuck are they talking about?" The conservative types will go away thinking "PC gone mad" and the liberal types will go away thinking "poor old transpeople".

Absolutely no light cast on the debate from either side. I doubt one viewer has been given pause for thought on whatever their current position is, if they even have one. Waste of time.

I think Nicky Cs softly softly has been quite good, allowing all of them to speak, to be heard. He's just read the text "Hetero normal summink" so he is deriding it all a bit!

JF is actually doing quite well, trying a little bit more than usual. Still in soft voice mode, still explaining rather than railing. You never know, JF may be becoming a better voice for the 'unknowing' to listen to!

No, I don't mean I like it, but that JF is currently sounding measured!

A missed opportunity which is a shame. It is so hard to be media skilled and sadly Heather came over as wordy and a bit petulant in her responses while JF 'worked' the audience skilfully and was able to be humorous. One of the successes of the Manfriday movement is that they come over as reasonable when interviewed - they know their stuff. They are able to respond quickly to challenge without coming over as defensive and they have statistics to hand. But this is inevitable - we're on a steep learning curve and having to be reactive.

Heather is good! JF is not! But that young woman... I feel sorry for her!

Currently JF is using their 'soft voice'...

I disagree completely that Heather was good. I'm on the same side as her and she wasn't making any sense - she was flustered; didn't understand the inital, very simple, question... She won't have got anyone thinking.

In contrast, JF was calm, measured, articulate...

Many people don't listen to what is being said, especially when it isn't clear what is being said, and will go largely on how the individual present themselves and how they come across.

Totally wasted opportunity IMO.

That was a real waste of an opportunity. Julie Bindel or Magdalen Berns, plain speakers, would have been for better choices for this show. No offence to Heather, it's just not an environment she shines in, and that works badly for all of us.

Sadly I agree. That was such a golden opportunity to clearly set out the issues - a long format panel discussion where each speaker is given a reasonable amount of time to speak uninterrupted & Heather first off the starting blocks. Compared to the usual talking over, huffing and tutting, that was a missed opportunity. Still, its good this actually being discussed now. That’s progress.

I think most people watching this show will be scratching their heads, wondering why they should care or what the hell that was all about. It looked like an incomprehensible disagreement between a posh woman who talks a lot and a posh man who thinks he is a lady. Our representatives who take these opportunities need to stop being 'nice' and just be clear.

I disagree completely that Heather was good I did change my mind as it went on.... I admitted that in my second post

A wasted opportunity but one with a glimmer of the hope of more, perhaps!

X-postedwith grrr.