The Big Questions BBC 'should you be able to self declare your gender?'

[R0wantrees]

On at 10am

Most people I know will have just looked at that - both JF and HBE - and gone "what the fuck are they talking about?

Same. Beginning to wonder if we have the same set of friends and acquaintances

For anyone who is interested the Women's World Cup will be held in France in 2019.

www.fifa.com/womensworldcup/index.html

I'm wondering why, given the previous discussion, this wasn't brought up. MtF can identify and partake in sports.

Jane Fae overshadowed most of the men. Heather came across as too academic, which is not a criticism, but for a 'sound bite' show perhaps missed the 'target' audience.

I thought it was a well balanced debate but both sides really said nothing to convince the impartial viewer. Is my opinion.

Really wasted opportunity. I thought the presenter and first speaker seemed really nervous. I wondered if there was more to it behind the scenes, for example if they had a strict remit on topic and had to avoid questioning, for example, whether woman is a term of gender identity or biological sex and whether sex based provisions are actually for gender identity.

To be fair, Heather was much clearer and on point with her concluding remarks - if only she’d started that way. Perhaps she was terribly nervous.

I felt Heather failed to get her arguments across. They needed to be made simply and clearly and she seemd unable to do so. She used the word 'axiomatic' and I had to go and look it up.

I admitted that in my second post

I was furiously typing and missed it, sorry.

So frustrating though.

I think it's a subject that is so broad and multi faceted that I think it's hard to encapsulate it in a couple of sentences.

I tried to give my brother and his wife a brief summary of the pertinant points. My brother is not known for his attention span or commitment to women's rights and gave me 20 minutes of his time to explain.

4 hours of discussion later I was finally onto Steph-oh-Knee...

Everyone who is speaking about this issue in the media really needs to be self disciplined and plan for these occasions.
Bullet points of your main issues
Prepare clear soundbites
Anticipate what the questions will be and rehearse your responses
Listen to yourself speak - record yourself.
Practice with a friend and ask for feedback
Prepare, prepare, prepare so that when you're asked a tricky question you have a 'bank' of possible responses to draw on.

I was furiously typing and missed it, sorry. Don't apologise. I was typing as I was listening... and you don't see my posts in my colour

She struggled to get her point across because it's a difficult point to sell. Most people (myself included) can't understand why it's such a big issue because we're talking about something that hasn't happened yet and it might not be a problem at all.

Men are abusing women already, every day, they don't need to pretend to be a woman in order to do this, it's easy now.

People new to the debate may well look into the backgrounds of Heather Brunskell-Evans & Jane Fae.
Its helpful to recognise that Heather is an academic in the fields of social theory and philosophy:
www.heather-brunskell-evans.co.uk
tweets twitter.com/brunskellevans?lang=en

Jane is a journalist and also has a new book out very recently.
faerising.wordpress.com
tweets twitter.com/JaneFae?lang=en

Its inevitable that there will be a number of differences in their style of discourse.

Everyone who is speaking about this issue in the media really needs to be self disciplined and plan for these occasions.

I agree but I also think that who does what media is important.

For this sort of show we need a funny, smart, down to earth and relatable representative. The audience will begin ready to ignore any woman/feminist who comes across as humourless and academic. Smashing those misconceptions at the beginning brings them on board to at least listen.

I don't know how people are approached to do these things but they should be pushing opportunities round so it gets to the right person for every occasion.

Oh FFS why can't someone just state LOUDLY that we disagree with the changing of the definition of the word WOMAN, it infringes women's rights!

What a waste!

Maybe we need a media training thread (headed up by Manfriday)??

Like an idiots guide to media work :)

R0wantrees
You are right and I don't mean to be over critical. Heather has a great track record and her work is invaluable. Two good articles in the Sunday papers and a mainstream slot on the BBC indicate how much the narrative have shifted and how the bullying #nodebate demands have failed.
This is due to the work of Fairplayforwomen, Transgendertrend, Heather and so many other courageous women too numerous to mention. I will wind my critical neck in

If anyone is on twitter, Fair Play for Women is tweeting some great factual information on the post-tv discussion. Worth re-tweeting and amplifying, or adding your own comments. Just search @fairplaywomen to see comments.

Did not see this, but agree that anyone appearing on TV or radio needs to be well prepared. Is there anyone with skills or experience who could coach people a bit? Sometimes trying to be kind or nice means we don't speak as convincingly even when it is a topic we are passionate about and know inside out. What is interesting is at least there is more out there now about the nonsense that is self ID.

Well that was another bizarre hotchpotch of nonsense! You've got Heather, who I'm sorry but she comes across as odd at the best of times rambling on in a way that puts me on edge, and Jane who comes across as basically a very nice person but so patronising in the way that she speaks it actually makes me cringe listening to her.

The small number of (non trans) audience members that spoke were generally supportive of trans people. One of them had a close friend who was a trans woman and that experience seemed to have largely informed her view. The audience came across better than the 'experts' and that was quite reassuring I thought.

Maybe we need a media training thread (headed up by Manfriday)??

Amy and Hannah are doing sterling media work. I wondered if they’d been trained.

Jane Fae coming across as nice is a matter of personal opinion and we’ll have to disagree on that. Some of the stuff JF said was just bizarre and the body language was off IMO.

That’s why Jane Fae is chosen: because she’s articulate, has campaigning experience and is intimidating in her body language.
She has also evidently realised that the knitting is now seen as a gimmick and dropped it: it’s served its purpose.

Heather was intimidated. She didn’t get her points across well, she stammered, hesitated and wasted time. She also refused to look at Jane, presumably because she was intimidated, but it came across as petulance.

I agree that media training is essential if you’re going head on with a journalist who has media and campaigning experience.

I agree that Heather has the mind the size of a universe and beyond, but that doesn't sometimes translate well into a show that has a 20 minute slot to discuss the issues, which I understand with regard to Self ID have serious consequences.

Will look up Fair Play for Women. (which brings me back to the sports issue - why not bring that up?)

Heather was intimidated. She didn’t get her points across well, she stammered, hesitated and wasted time. She also refused to look at Jane, presumably because she was intimidated, but it came across as petulance.

Jane was intimidating in both presence and in looking at those in the 'audience' who were speaking, especially the first speaker.

Can you be intimidated and petulant at the same time?

and a posh man who thinks he is a lady.

I wish you'd go on television. You'd lose 96% of the entire country with your harassment and rudeness.

Jane Fae is perhaps better suited for Radio (to be frank and honest).

“Can you be intimidated and petulant at the same time?”

The audience won’t have seen that Heather was ‘intimidated’ (I’m guessing that she was), they’ll have seen her as being ‘petulant’.