Trans Kids Are Less Conservative About Gender Roles Than Cis Kids

[WAKAME]

It is often suggested in gender critical circles that trans people have very rigid and conservative views of gender roles and stereotypes, but a recent study has found that trans kids (and their siblings) are actually less rigid about gender stereotypes than their cis peers.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28913950

This is no surprise to trans people of course - we spend our lives fighting against imposed gender roles - the pre-transition life of a trans woman for example, is typically spent being told by homophobes not to be so girly, whilst her post-transition life is typically spent being told by TERFs how manly she is.

So it is a sad irony that whilst trans kids are "more willing to indicate a desire to befriend and attend school with someone who violates gender stereotypes", it is be amongst gender non-conforming women that they will find many of the people who repeatedly accuse them of perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Still, from a feminist perspective, it's nice to know that trans kids are leading the way by helping to support their gender non-conforming peers, whilst also helping to educate the people around them about the acceptance of human diversity. And as more and more trans people come out in childhood and access the help they need, I am sure things are only going to get better :-)

Given that young, gender non-conforming children are the ones being identified as trans, this may not indicate what they think it does. To properly do this you would need some way of objectively defining a child as trans in a way that didn't depend on gender conformity. And at 6 years old that simply does not exist.

"The forced transitioning of gender non conforming children by transgender advocates is abusive to children."

Good job it doesn't happen then.

"Hi Wakame. Am I understanding you correctly then that as a child you longed for a female body instead of a male one and to use the word girl about yourself instead of boy? In which case gender roles and gender identity didn't come into it for you at all? That's really interesting."

Hi Sarah. It was more a case at looking at certain body parts and thinking, what the hell is the - it doesn't feel mine. And it wasn't only wanting to use the word girl, it was needing to be perceived as female by other people. It is very lonely when everyone mistakes you for someone else.

But that's what the term "gender identity" means - it refers to a person's innate sense of their own sex. It appears to be biological in origin. Not everyone has a sense of their own sex - that's quite normal - it's called being "agender" which is actually part of the trans spectrum.

I was OK when it came to gender roles being such a tomboy - I was certainly luckier than many trans girls in that respect because it was easy for me to pretend to be cis and there was nothing about my behaviour that really gave me away. Trans girls who cannot hide their femininity are typically the ones who face persistent homophobic bullying (homophobic because the general assumption is that they are gay boys rather than trans girls unless they come out, which many don't).

Point is, gender identity is a different thing to gendered behaviour.

Ok so gender identity is the word girl and no more? Is that right?

If not what is it?

Can humans change sex?

Or is it the same as having body dysmorphia or not having body dysmorphia? Ie I have a gender identity in line with my sex if I don't have body dysmorphia.

Because usually identity is something that can be articulated, as is gender. They both have to do with social norms. The extent to which we internalize the expectations of others determines how comfortable we are performing those stereotypical roles. These issues start to impact all children at a very young age. Often children display bizarrely rigid gendered behaviours as they begin to form a 'gender identity Not all children obviously.

If gender identity has nothing to do with roles, behaviour or social norms then it must be sex identity surely?

In which case for you wakame saying you had a female identity is exactly the same thing as saying you had body dysmorphia- you felt your body was not right, not yours and at odds with the body you thought you should have - a female body. Am I understanding this correctly?

And when people treated you in a gendered way they did so because of your male body, which, while you were comfortable with the gender role they imposed on you, made your dysmorphia worse because their expectations were based upon your male body.

Here on fwr I have learned from women who were aware that they were suffering from the gendered expectations of others at a very young age. Others like me only came to realise it much later in life and feel we were tricked. We are only now learning we can be who we really are inside. Some people here have experienced extreme discomfort with their own bodies, particularly those with asd. Gender critical feminists have a different narrative that explains their experiences and informs their views of themselves and others. It is based on well established scientific ideas about how identity and gender develop in a psycho-social context. We do tend to encourage our children to be gender non conforming and many of us are particularly keen on challenging homophobia and toxic masculinity. I believe transphobia has its source in homophobia, or even vice versa; that they are one and the same thing; the excessive and aggressive assertion of gender norms in a way that 'others' and bullies those who don't adhere to them. This is far more often seen in men and boys than women and girls. Not surprising since men have more to gain through reinforcing gender norms. In this sense I am very much on your side Wakame and you would find me an ally if you don't try to assert gender over biology. If you do this you make me disappear under the cloak that oppresses me.

And herein I think lies my problem.

Body dysmophia makes sense to me. And if there’s a way to fix it - physically changing - I defend people’s right to do it, and to use female spaces if MTF.

However where people are not changing their appearance, surely the dissonance is with regard to gender roles. But gender roles are socially constructed. Why should a transition across social identities have any bearing on biological classifications of sex?

I think we need private individual spaces if we are truly to protect people from men.

If someone self IDs as MTF but maintains all make physical characteristics, they’re surely transitioning gender not sex. If that. Therefore they should be entitled to things the female gender is entitled too but not the female sex.

I’m gender critical btw but aiming to highlight the absurdity.

Thing is, what is the female "gender" entitled to? Sephora? A big pouffy meringue of a wedding dress? All of the spaces I can think of that are explicitly marked for women are based on the body unless their purpose is to sell you stuff, and even then spas etc are mostly aimed at women but for obvious reasons are going to contain areas where the expectation is no penises because people are naked.

Wakame clearly had body dysmorphia so I feel it's a bit strawmannish to move the conversation onto those who don't although I recognise praps I have started to centre the conversation around Wakame's experience. I was hoping to reach a common understanding, even if it is only of each other's different narratives and why they impose on each other.

I think the problem there is what happens with those trans women who will always very clearly read as male no matter what combination of hormones, surgery etc they undergo. Certainly the removal of the penis will make someone a bit less alarming to women in spaces involving nudity, but even then will not remove all of the threat response from all women, and there's still the issue of those spaces where people aren't naked and so all women will see is a clearly male person dressed in an unusual way. The TRA argument would be that that's just too bad and women need to get over it. I'm not willing to accept that that's a burden that women and girls as a group should take on just to make life easier for people with dysphoria.

I'm not sure that there is any possibility of finding common ground on that issue, it seems to be an area where there's a direct clash of needs and if neither side is willing to bend then one is going to be forced to by society (and right now it's women being forced to put up and shut up).

Tiny sample groups (less that 100 for each group). Seriously, how do psychologists get away with producing so much junk science?

And the solution on the table doesn't solve the issue for GNC people and men who are threatened by other men for whatever reason. That's why I believe we need individual private spaces everywhere where we undress.

More spaces is definitely the best option, the problem is that there's a core group of trans people who refuse to use them (think of the American whose name I can't remember who said that if denied entry to women's bathrooms they'd pee on the ground outside them rather than use either the men's or a third option). With prisons for example it's clear that it's not just men IDing as trans who need some separation from other male prisoners for their own safety, and that could be accomplished within the male estate or if there are enough of them by the creation of a prison specifically for them (which seems to be where things are headed in Thailand).

I think they might be less concerned if it was individual spaces for everyone. Reading Wakame's experience I can see how the best resolution to the dysmorphia has been to create an identity around a female body and using the women's facilities would be a key part of that. Less of an issue if the women's facilities are private spaces and identical to the men's. Actually we often wonder why facilities are such a key issue but because they are to do with intimate space they are very close to thoughts about bodies. This must be particularly problematic for those who suffer so much as a result of their sexed body. I guess that could be people who are dysphoric about it. It could also be women who have experienced rape and sexual assault. Some men experience rape too of course. I am not trying to make all these experiences equivalent. I am trying to think hard about the issue presented here from both sides.

And that wasn't a NAMALT statement I just meant men rape men as well as women. Hence private spaces a good solution for all.

And all of them accessible please (any budding architects and surveyors who might be reading this)

Sorry I seem to have accidentally derailed us