Trans Kids Are Less Conservative About Gender Roles Than Cis Kids

[WAKAME]

It is often suggested in gender critical circles that trans people have very rigid and conservative views of gender roles and stereotypes, but a recent study has found that trans kids (and their siblings) are actually less rigid about gender stereotypes than their cis peers.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28913950

This is no surprise to trans people of course - we spend our lives fighting against imposed gender roles - the pre-transition life of a trans woman for example, is typically spent being told by homophobes not to be so girly, whilst her post-transition life is typically spent being told by TERFs how manly she is.

So it is a sad irony that whilst trans kids are "more willing to indicate a desire to befriend and attend school with someone who violates gender stereotypes", it is be amongst gender non-conforming women that they will find many of the people who repeatedly accuse them of perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Still, from a feminist perspective, it's nice to know that trans kids are leading the way by helping to support their gender non-conforming peers, whilst also helping to educate the people around them about the acceptance of human diversity. And as more and more trans people come out in childhood and access the help they need, I am sure things are only going to get better :-)

I'd argue the problem here is that you were called a 'tomboy', rather than that your tree-climbing, or whatever, was accepted as something that some girls do and some boys do (my two boys have never shown any interest in climbing trees - should I be worried?)

Just before I actually read the thread.

People who call me ‘cis’ can FUCK RIGHT OFF! I am a WOMAN and that is enough. You don’t get to demand that I use lie the pronouns you want THEN demand that I use some made up descriptor for myself. Just in case you missed it. I am a WOMAN.

This was one of the best things I've seen on Twitter for a while:
twitter.com/tionalyn/status/1001279442184892416

the response was a fabulous example of what makes girls & woman (or not!)

"There is something really quite aggressive about a transwoman coming into a female space and using the word 'cis,' which women here have repeatedly stated they find offensive."

Have trans women who are in this group because they are women, and also feminists, stated that they find it offensive to be referred to as "men" or "TIMs", or "trannies"? If not, let me be the first!

"You didn't lose that male socialisation tone with your transition, did you WAKAME?"

I was inspired by the suffragettes to be outspoken.

You see WAKAME we don't waltz all over trans spaces and shout MAN TIM TIF TRANNY.

In real life we refer to trans friends as whatever they choose to call themselves.

Here, were women e- congregate we drop the social politenesses and call them what we choose, mostly in order to be plain about the subject at hand.

The trans posters here tend to use an anonymous user name, regularly post that whilst they wish to appear and be socially accepted as female they are still men, and also quite regularly use MEN TIFS TIMS TRANNIES

You are not the first to object. You won't be the last. Your inherent masculinity doesn't work here!

"if a flippin' six-year old boy says he's a girl and is given any other response apart from "Don't be daft, sweetie, you've got a willy","

What if they keep saying it? And by the age of 7, they have started to withdraw from the world. By 8, they are starting to self harm, and at the age of 11 (this is a true story by the way) you find them standing at the top of a flight of stairs screaming "Mummy, please let me die."?

At that point, you might want to take them to speak to an expert on gender dysphoria.

Well, if that happened any reasonable parent would have made an appointment with a GP.

Just because a minority of children do have dysphoria does not mean all children who do not conform to gender stereotypes must be dysphoric!

It's about treating all people as individuals and not using one persons lived experience to describe that of all people!

"This is no surprise to trans people of course - we spend our lives fighting against imposed gender roles "

And you think natal women don't? And many natal men who are unhappy with the gender roles society imposes on them?

"I could probably really easily turn my kid into a "trans" kid if I didn't just use common sense to explain we don't get a choice in everything in life"

If it's so easy to change a child's gender identity by simply telling them they don't get a choice, why don't you set up a clinic offering "cures" for trans kids using the same method? You could make a fortune.

Probably for the same reason you don't answer all/any questions asked of you here - she can't be arsed!

"Just because a minority of children do have dysphoria does not mean all children who do not conform to gender stereotypes must be dysphoric!"

Obviously. What exactly do you think goes on in a gender clinic? It's not about forcing a gender non-conforming child to be trans, it is about identifying children with gender dysphoria (some of whom are gender non-conforming) and then considering the best option for dealing with that dysphoria.

Have trans women who are in this group because they are women, and also feminists, stated that they find it offensive to be referred to as "men" or "TIMs", or "trannies"? If not, let me be the first

So this is payback then?

I used to refer to TIMs as transwomen until one told me to go fuck myself. I don't see the point any more. It obscufates reality.

Although the only time I saw tranny used on here was from a trans woman who then screenshot it to prove how hateful we are.

At that point, you might want to take them to speak to an expert on gender dysphoria

Absolutely... this is a very good point. Link here to an interesting & nuanced talk given by Dr Polly Carmichael (Head of GIDs, UK ). In it she discusses the wider context, evidence base dilemmas & support the service provides to children and young people.

soundcloud.com/user-664361280/dr-polly-carmichael-developments-and-dilemmas

** GIDS=Gender Identity Development Service of the Tavistock and Portman Trust, which is the NHS centre of excellence for helping children and adolescents with gender dsyphoria and other issues of gender-variance.

"I could probably really easily turn my kid into a "trans" kid if I didn't just use common sense to explain we don't get a choice in everything in life"

If it's so easy to change a child's gender identity by simply telling them they don't get a choice, why don't you set up a clinic offering "cures" for trans kids using the same method? You could make a fortune.

This thing called morals and common sense. That's the reason I don't. It's also not changing a child's gender identity- it's explaining the one they are.

"I imagine you have been thinking it through for a lifetime and still can't really explain what it means either."

Sorry - I thought it was fairly clear, but I am happy to explain. By the age of 3 or 4 (can't narrow it down to the precise year) I felt sure I was a girl. However, I wasn't into pink or princesses - I liked "boy's" games and acted in a fairly similar way to cis boys of my age, even though I felt I was a girl.

One of my best friends growing up was a cis girl who was also a tomboy. She didn't feel she was a boy - she wasn't trans - she felt she was a girl, despite her behaviour, so we were very alike - the main difference between us was that I was assigned male at birth.

Or, to put it more succinctly - gendered behaviour and gender identity are 2 different things.

Hope that clarifies for you.

What exactly do you think goes on in a gender clinic? Personally, having helped a friend transition, I know what happens when a woman transitions to male. I even know how they build the penis, in detail!

It's not about forcing a gender non-conforming child to be trans, it is about identifying children with gender dysphoria (some of whom are gender non-conforming) and then considering the best option for dealing with that dysphoria. Like many others here I don't think there is anything appropriate or 'best option' for a child in a gender clinic. In a psychologist office, yes, in a medicalised space, no!

There is more than one medical opinion on gender/trans and children. You must surely have understood that all GC women would be extremely wary of any irreversible medical treatment for pre-pubescent children?

Some research I did on gender stereotypes and roles amongst children who are claimed to be transgender.

Common Threads And Narratives of Transgender Children And What This Means For Our Lesbian And Gay Populations

"It's also not changing a child's gender identity- it's explaining the one they are."

Again, if you can "cure" a trans child by simply explaining that their gender identity is not what they think it is, set up a clinic. If that's not a "moral" option, just put out your advice to parents of trans kids on the internet - get them just to explain to trans girls that they don't have a female identity after all and then ask them to get back to you to tell you how well it worked.

Oh! Sorry WAKAME. Does your personal lived experience get to trump all others? Are you the blueprint for the human race?

Nobody, well, no sensible person, would repudiate your life story. We are all intelligent enough to know that for some kids your life story is something they will relate to.

However, your are a statistical anomaly. An individual that we would all hope society does, or very soon should, be able to accommodate for all individuals. But none of us would want to change the way we raise ALL children in order to give them ALL your lived experience.

Ah - MY, glad you're here. A good friend of mine has a subscription to your Terrorizer magazine. Apparently, money's been going out but the magazine hasn't been arriving. Could you look into it? Thanks.

Wac: I don't see anyone saying transgender people don't exist.

I just see people saying that not identifying with a particular gender does not make you trans and that many people can come to terms with their body and identity without resorting to chemical and surgical aids and if they can then that is a healthier way to live and should therefore be heavily supported.

And many mothers know that children say and true lay believe lots of things as they are growing up and only a few of those things are really fundamentally true to the child and persist into adulthood.

And I also see people trying to bully people into treating trans people as identified by the sex they desire . This is annoying because most /many women don't want to be treated according to their sex except in cases where their sex make sure them vulnerable. So if I treat you as I would any other human , I am treating you with the kind of respect I would like extended to me.

And in the cases where a woman's sex makes her vulnerable and so wanting special treatment, well in those cases transwomen are as much of a threat as normal men. I.e. Not all of them by any means but enough that law gives us additional safeguarding rights

5 points. Can you address each ?

"Wakame seems to have found a new bunch of women to bother. Must have got bored at Feminist Current."

Well, you see, they moderate heavily there - they have a habit of blocking questions they can't answer. This place seems a little more open, so that's good.

"There is no such thing as a cis woman. There is no such thing as a trans six-year-old."

OK.

"Could it be that gender identity theory is a religious cult and has no bearing on material reality whatsoever."

That's correct, and I should warn you, we, the trans cultists with out mutli-billion dollar backing, have built a sex-change ray gun on the moon and will soon begin our evil plan to take over the world - mwahahahaha!

What about rachel Dolzeal or whatever her name is...

Should we be also helping children to transition to living as a different skin colour?

Some things you just can't change. No matter how much you might want to.

The world is becoming fairly accepting of people living and expressing themselves however they wish... but we don't have to "trans" anyone for them to just be them and come to terms with what life dealt them

"What if they keep saying it? And by the age of 7, they have started to withdraw from the world. By 8, they are starting to self harm"
Well, my child would be receiving psychiatric help by that stage. I would be keeping an open mind about what the specific issue was- but obviously gender dysphoria would be one of the possible diagnoses.