Trans Kids Are Less Conservative About Gender Roles Than Cis Kids

[WAKAME]

It is often suggested in gender critical circles that trans people have very rigid and conservative views of gender roles and stereotypes, but a recent study has found that trans kids (and their siblings) are actually less rigid about gender stereotypes than their cis peers.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28913950

This is no surprise to trans people of course - we spend our lives fighting against imposed gender roles - the pre-transition life of a trans woman for example, is typically spent being told by homophobes not to be so girly, whilst her post-transition life is typically spent being told by TERFs how manly she is.

So it is a sad irony that whilst trans kids are "more willing to indicate a desire to befriend and attend school with someone who violates gender stereotypes", it is be amongst gender non-conforming women that they will find many of the people who repeatedly accuse them of perpetuating gender stereotypes.

Still, from a feminist perspective, it's nice to know that trans kids are leading the way by helping to support their gender non-conforming peers, whilst also helping to educate the people around them about the acceptance of human diversity. And as more and more trans people come out in childhood and access the help they need, I am sure things are only going to get better :-)

Well, my child would be receiving psychiatric help by that stage. I would be keeping an open mind about what the specific issue was- but obviously gender dysphoria would be one of the possible diagnoses.

Steady on Bertrand. That's dangerously close to common bloody sense! Stating the sodding obvious, even!

I would, and did, seek psychological support fro my child, who at the age of 9 was talking about wanting to die

But it’s totally contradictory.

To BE trans is to enforce a rigid gender role.

If you didn’t give a fuck about gender roles, you’d just be you. A girl, or a boy, being a girl or a boy in whatever way they wish.

But to then say you’re trans is identifying with a specific gender role.

Do you not see the whole setup IS enforcing gender roles?

Rowantrees just wanted to say, that twitter thread is AWESOME. It actually brought tears to my eyes.

My little girl often tells stuff like "boys say they are better at science than girls" - my response is always along the lines of the tweeter. But I've never had a real astronaut come along to back me up

" I don't see anyone saying transgender people don't exist."

See above for people saying trans children don't exist.

"I just see people saying that not identifying with a particular gender does not make you trans"

Obviously.

" many people can come to terms with their body and identity without resorting to chemical and surgical aids"

I agree - good for them.

"and if they can then that is a healthier way to live and should therefore be heavily supported. "

They should indeed be supported, as should those needing medical intervention. Don't you agree?

"And many mothers know that children say and true lay believe lots of things as they are growing up and only a few of those things are really fundamentally true to the child and persist into adulthood. "

Of course. And it's very normal for a child to say "I'm a dinosaur/girl/boy/Batman/robot" etc etc. We are not talking about those perfectly normal behaviours - we're talking about kids who consistently and persistently insist that they are the opposite sex to the one they were assigned at birth, and who experience significant psychological distress because of it, often to the point of self-harm and suicide attempts. Those kids need help, and supporting them in their gender identity appears to be an extremely effective way of helping them.

"And I also see people trying to bully people into treating trans people as identified by the sex they desire ."

If your a trans woman and someone insists on misgendering you, that feels rather like bullying too.

"most /many women don't want to be treated according to their sex except in cases where their sex make sure them vulnerable."

Not sure what you mean there. Trans women don't want to be patronised, paid less than male colleagues, raped etc etc any more than cis women, but we do want to be recognised as ourselves as do all the cis women I know.

"And in the cases where a woman's sex makes her vulnerable and so wanting special treatment, well in those cases transwomen are as much of a threat as normal men."

Example?

"5 points. Can you address each ?"

There you go, but please bear in mind that I have limited time and generally try to answer selctive comments that cover a principle raised by several commentators.

"Well, my child would be receiving psychiatric help by that stage. I would be keeping an open mind about what the specific issue was- but obviously gender dysphoria would be one of the possible diagnoses."

Precisely.

Sex stereotypes are harmful, if you promote them then you're sexist.

There are no such thing as trans or cis kids, just kids, males, females and very rarely children who are intersex.

People who care about children are fighting hard to remove sex stereotypes so that children can wear what they like and grow up to be healthy, happy adults.

People who don't care about children are pushing rigid stereotypes and encouraging children to believe that sex is optional.

I know whose side I'm on.

I don't know about anyone else but I don't believe it's a productive use of energy replying further on this thread.

Certain posters are quite skilled at making people waste their time on here. Time which could be better spent elsewhere.

Also my feeling is that every time someone reproduces this op's name IN CAPITALS it's like the are being allowed to squat squarely in the centre of the room while we all have to step round them. I don't wish to indulge them. It's not good etiquette to use capitals online unless you want to seem like you're shouting

Just my 2 cents.

"as a woman who grew up as a tomboy, all toy guns (sorry), cars and few dresses. Guess what, I am a heterosexual woman, married for decades to an actual man and STILL I do not conform to many gender stereotypes."

Ah - you and I were very similar as children, and I don't conform to gender stereotypes either much. And I too have been married for years, but it's a same sex marriage, so there we differ.

"Yet I am not trans, nor did I ever feel I was not female!"

Congratulations!

"No dear, you spend your lives trying to inhabit those gender roles. You must do, or you would have no need to trans from anything to anything else, you could just be who you are!"

Thing is, my body just felt like the wrong sort, even by the age of 4, and being a girl who was referred to as a boy all the time just wore me down. It's OK though - I transitioned and it's all fine now. Sounds like we both ended up happy :-)

There’s no such thing as a cis women. There are just women.

A child who insists they are the opposite sexually needs sympathetic counselling because you cannot change sex. affirmative treatment is a mindfuck - humans can’t change sex.

Do you believe humans can change sex, Op?

Out of curiosity... are transmen quite so involved in this whole TRA movement?

"My impression of mtf transgender people who are in the public eye is that they often go out of their way to confirm to an extremely sexualised patriarchal stereotype of women. Hair extensions, long nails, figure hugging clothes, tons of make up etc."

You mean like millions of cis women?

"How they must look down on me, a mere cis woman with my minimal grooming and lack of interest in flicking my hair extensions and my clothes bought from charity shops because I don't want to buy new clothes that have been made in sweat shops by children and women. Are they broadminded enough to accept me, a plain, scruffy middled-aged 'cis' woman as a woman? "

Of course. I'm a trans woman and you have just described my appearance rather accurately!

Do you believe humans can change sex, Op?

"It would be far better for transactivists to go onto threads about rape and prostitution, about women's rights to abortion and pre-and post maternity care, etc. And talk about the problems women face, empathising and sympathising with anecdotes, and expressing support for campaigns. Giving of time and, if possible, money. "

I think you might have meant to write "TERFs" instead of "transactivists" there ;-)

"In the OP WAKAME regers to the homphobic bullying that transchildren hmm often recieve."

Yes - trans kids are typically perceived as gay before they transition, so trans girls who happen to be feminine often experience persistent homophobic bullying. When they transition, it becomes transphobic bullying instead.

^"This was one of the best things I've seen on Twitter for a while:
twitter.com/tionalyn/status/1001279442184892416"^

Bless her - just like me, except I liked having short hair and wearing trousers too.

"You see WAKAME we don't waltz all over trans spaces and shout MAN TIM TIF TRANNY."

What can I tell you - I'm a woman and a feminist in a feminist space full of women. If you call me names because I also happen to be trans, I might have something to say about it.

But can humans change sex?

myanxiety speaking with all the authority of a person with a single transman friend... I have known him since about 1986. I have been there since he was "Juliet", went to the Czech clinic with him for his last major surgery - making his penis - and have been his mate and even worked with him after he became "Julian" He has been in a hetero relationship with my female ex boss for over a decade. So I would say he is about as transman as you can get.

Just like DHs full on gender bending, cross dressing mate, no, he isn't involved, finds it frightening and can't see what there is to be gained from all of the shouting and threatening. He has no desire whatsoever to be anywhere, do anything that makes others uncomfortable. And yes, he is fully aware that this is his female conditioning, still hanging around making itself known

DHs cross dressing mate, on the other hand, is happy to explain his fetish, including the fact that he gets a sexual kick out of making people feel uncomfortable. Not sure how his wife has put up with him, but they have been together since their teens and his 3 sons seem to have found a way of dealing with Tranny Dad!

Have trans women who are in this group because they are women

Human beings cannot change sex. Gender identity is a religious belief based in dualism.

This is not a religious website. Therefore, there are no transwomen in this group because they are women. There are trans-identified people here who are respectful of a space for women and also those who are not.

"Do you believe humans can change sex, Op?"

It's complex and nuanced. All human characteristics exist on spectrum between masculine and feminine extremes. Most people have most of their characteristics more towards one end than the other but we are all a mixture and no one is 100% male or female.

At the same time, many human sexual characteristics are highly malleable, so trans people tend to move lots of those characteristics from one end of the spectrum towards the other.

What can I tell you - I'm a woman and a feminist in a feminist space full of women. If you call me names because I also happen to be trans, I might have something to say about it. You can tell me all sorts of things, maybe start with why you are cherry picking bits of posts and giving flippant answers.

Patronising us, as you last few posts have done, won't make us go away! It won't make us agree with you. And it won't make us all shout happily "Yay! WAKAME is a woman!"

So.. now you have mansplained explained all of that social construct stuff, answer the question. Taking all of those 'nuances' into account, do you believe that human beings can change their sex?

It's not complex and nuanced at all.

You cannot alter how you were born.

You can alter it as you develop but you cannot swap! You are not a clownfish

"My little girl often tells stuff like "boys say they are better at science than girls" "

Yes, I used to hear that at school, and because I had a female identity, I assumed I would be bad at maths.