How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

[Treesybreezy]

I need to apologize upfront - I am disabled and also looking after a baby so I'm not going to be able to check back on this thread as frequently as I'd like. I will be back tho.

I've just read this by sister outrider sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/amp/?__twitter_impression=true . I know there have been other threads where black women (or other ethnicities) have said, racism is a massive problem and there's been a large, reflexive defensive reaction from white women here.

I'm too tired to articulate this properly now in support of what sister outrider has said, but I've definitely seen both racism and classism in action.

How do we set this right?

"I think a lot of (working class but not limited to working class) people understand "racism" as personal prejudice but not as structural inequality. And yes, everyone does need an education about this - personal prejudice + structural inequality = racism. "

How are you going to educate the people of, say, Merthyr Tydfil, on how structural inequality is racism? Not going to go down too well I shouldn't think.

We need to listen, many things about different cultures we may not understand and that's fine. Listen to what these women tell us and let us learn from their experiences. We, white women can't understand the WoC perspective because we haven't lived it. WoC can't understand our perspective because they haven't lived it. The major thing is, I think, we are all women. That is what counts and what we need to remember.

@picassospaintbrush: I know we were back and forthing a bit on the now deleted thread, but I appreciate your sharing parts of your background and history. It’s very interesting and helpful!

Funny, when I look up racism in the dictionary it says nothing about it being prejudice plus power, just prejudice.

Where do you get this definition from?

And, by the way, working class people have long histories of solidarity with Black people, for example. It was Manchester cotton mill workers who recognized their oppression in the mill was tied to African slaves in the cotton fields. It was Liverpool dock workers who recognized that their oppression on the docks was connected to goods shipped from plantations. It was indentured Irish in America who initially joined with enslaved Africans against their masters. Working class people banded together in the East End to turn away marching fascists. Working class people understand structural racism even if the exact term isn’t used because they live the reality that racism is created to divide the white working class and racialized people from taking common cause against their oppressors. Racism is not a working class heritage and working class people have been in the front lines fighting it for generations.

What is happening on this board with the way WOC are being treated has nothing to do with plain speaking working class people oppressed by identity politics. Please don’t insult the radical anti-colonial labour histories of solidarity by blaming racism on them.

Mamaoya How could white women help in making you and other WoC feel included? Is there something about feminism you feel is exclusionary? I want to know, I want to learn, I want you to feel and be included.

"Working class people understand structural racism "

The examples you gave were overt, not structural racism.

How about opening out a bit. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35504185 Muslim women 'stopped from becoming Labour councillors' There was no response from Corbyn to this plea, rather like his response to anti Semitism. The Muslim Womens Network site is interesting. Apparently there's a case 're forced marriage going through court at the moment .Like FGM there have been few if any successful prosecutions. This is intersectionality: religion meets sex. I asked L.P. 're their policy on tackling FGM and forced marriage in their review and didn't get a response.
How do we link into and support these activists?

Those experiences and histories are not universal to all working class people. Most of the people I have known in my life may not see themselves as racist or even act in racist ways but im sure the ones who have done critical analysis of white supremacy as structural oppression are in a minority, and I'm sure most don't know all the 'correct' vocabulary and concepts so as not to offend, even unintentionally.

What is happening at the moment contains the assumption that for anyone to be welcome to join the discussion they must be on step X of understanding and vocabulary re homophobia and racism etc. And of course that impacts working class people who for the most part do not have access to all of that in the same way, or don't use language in the same way or don't have the same expectations. I am offended all the time with the way people like me are treated and spoken to and about by the 'civilised' middle class but I have no expectation that they will understand why without engaging in conversation about it with them. I get what is behind the frustration that stops people wanting to have these discussions but we still need to do it or we go nowhere.

That is a lot of assumptions you are making about many of us in this discussion.

And you proved my point.

I want to be sure you understand, JuzzaL, that those of us who are neither white nor middle class can see what you are doing here.

@Tacolover Your input here would be invaluable.

The global system of enslavement embedded into economies, politics, social systems, law, manufacturing, etc. and still having effects on policing, poverty, housing, educational outcomes, incarceration, family composition, etc. wasn’t structural? How are you defining structural racism?

The working class isn't just white and heterosexual and neither is the middle class and I don't know what it achieves to pretend that all of us in any single group are the same in all ways or unanimous mous in our opinion, or that we don't simultaneously belong to other groups too (black and disabled, Muslim and gay, white and impoverished, etc). It's like the conversations today have just been splitting people into a single identity each and forgetting our crossovers and similarities.

JoanSummers Agree. People can't be put into just one box, we are many things. I am looking at how to aid WoC as feel as women that might (and I say that hesitantly) be easier than to rid society of class prejudice. Class wars are in many ways dictated by men and they are not going to give it all up easily. I feel as women if we can do something to help minority women then they will take it back to their communities and feel more empowered.

I always feel a little nervous speaking about racial issues as I'm worried I might say something out of turn. This is why I want to learn about WoC and their experiences so I know how I could best help them. I feel if we could get WoC on board and have them feel like they belong and are valued we can make wider societal changes.

Oh, I don't know Lang, listen to working class people, stop centering white middle class women, stop belittling working class people by assuming they know nothing of structural inequality.

What makes you think I'm either white or middle class?

(Just to be clear, in case it comes across as such, none of that is intended as any kind of dig at you.)

If you don't want me to think that, why repeat my words almost verbatim?

I want to be sure you understand, JuzzaL, that those of us who are neither white nor middle class can see what you are doing here.

What I think Juzza is doing is bringing an argument from another thread - which I purposely ignored because it was a fist fight and not a productive discussion - to yet another thread. What I think is that this thread will now descend into a load of pointless arguing past each other - and ruin the beginnings of constructive dialogue.

I'm beginning to think this is Juzza's deliberate purpose.

How are you going to educate the people of, say, Merthyr Tydfil, on how structural inequality is racism? Not going to go down too well I shouldn't think.

By not shouting racist at them when they say something in the "wrong" way, welcoming them into spaces where they can hear other perspectives without being sneered at, and come to better mutual understandings with others while others come to better understandings with them.

LangCleg I was on that thread, however you won't get a bun-fight from me, this is an issue that I feel is extremely important. Let's leave the old thread where it is and concentrate on these issues.

I want to know Juzza's productive, constructive suggestions for banishing classism from feminism.

I'm not really up for scourging anything out of anywhere to be honest. it all sounds a bit dramatic.

I read the letter to Laurie Penny that LangCleg posted with interest, regarding classism, maybe that's part of it: looking at what people do rather than what they say. of course for randoms on the internet, all you've generally got to go on is what they say.

I think it's also important to understand that as a fairly privileged person (which I am), there will be lots going on that you don't necessarily get straight away because unless you make an effort you won't perceive the structural inequalities at play. My mum was a social worker and talked to me a lot about unintended consequences. This reminds me of conversations with her.

My mum was a social worker and talked to me a lot about unintended consequences.

The skill of social work depends upon the ability to analyse power imbalances and relationships and to reflect on the possible harm of any interventions they themselves make. The good ones - and I'm sure your mum was one of those! - can tell you a lot of important things. I have an older cousin who has just retired from social work and I genuinely believe I've learned more from her than I have from anyone or anything else - just by listening to her reflect on her own work.

What I think Juzza is doing is bringing an argument from another thread - which I purposely ignored because it was a fist fight and not a productive discussion - to yet another thread. What I think is that this thread will now descend into a load of pointless arguing past each other - and ruin the beginnings of constructive dialogue.

I'm beginning to think this is Juzza's deliberate purpose.

Glad to know I am not alone.
I have seen this happen to Feminist forums before and I find it very worrisome. If it is not stopped it will be all woman bashing and misunderstanding all the time and then it will be a ghost town.
I have suspected for weeks that that is the goal.

JuzzaL

You cannot force people on the interwebs to talk about what you want the way you want them to.
Derailing another thread to continue bashing women because they failed to live up to your unrealistic expectations is counter productive.