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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

434 replies

Treesybreezy · 31/05/2018 17:00

I need to apologize upfront - I am disabled and also looking after a baby so I'm not going to be able to check back on this thread as frequently as I'd like. I will be back tho.

I've just read this by sister outrider sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/amp/?__twitter_impression=true . I know there have been other threads where black women (or other ethnicities) have said, racism is a massive problem and there's been a large, reflexive defensive reaction from white women here.

I'm too tired to articulate this properly now in support of what sister outrider has said, but I've definitely seen both racism and classism in action.

How do we set this right?

OP posts:
JoanSummers · 02/06/2018 09:51

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Italiangreyhound · 02/06/2018 10:06

@JoanSummers excellent post.

I think that maybe some people are using these ideas to break us down from the inside out. We can oppose racism and self id, and want equal rights/opportunities for all women, working class, women of colour etc.

flashnazia · 02/06/2018 10:42

Just like men don't see sexism, some people can't see racism. Quelle surprise

BeyondSceptical · 02/06/2018 10:46

Thank you Joan, and yy Italian

LangCleg · 02/06/2018 11:01

yet thousands of politically unsavvy WC people. People who aren't racist but don't always word things correctly

Back to this because I see it too and it ties into what Joan is saying.

Most working class people aren't racist. What they often lack - if you could even describe it as a lack - is performative wokeness. Plain speaking is held as a virtue, not a vice. Woketopian efforts to educate are perceived as posh people issuing authoritarian commandments and therefore rejected. What is needed is exposure to one another so that people can translate and understand the intent behind different modes of speaking and discourse.

(If the woke left had realised this two years ago, the country might not have voted for Brexit.)

MistAmougstElephants · 02/06/2018 11:54

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/race-discrimination

Relevant to the thread, explains indirect and direct racism, also describes victimization when someone points out racism. Article is more employment based but is also covers those who are using a service.

Picassospaintbrush · 02/06/2018 12:26

LangCleg

Very well put.

JoanSummers · 02/06/2018 12:43

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JoanSummers · 02/06/2018 12:46

To be clearer - I'm not saying we should wash dirty linen in private - I'm saying this was poorly handled and that is an issue that needs to be dealt with in itself - the social worker/professional class looking to bolster their own reputation against other women's instead of talking and persuading.

Offred · 02/06/2018 12:52

TBH racism amongst those who have no power is far less of a problem than racism amongst those in power.

The problem has been that for an age the government has utilised all the isms to impose poverty.

It is entirely unsurprising if the poorest people are most concerned about poverty or that the language they use to describe their conditions reflects that of the government’s policies.

This is not the same as being racist; single mums/foreigners ‘getting houses’ is what everyone is told to think. Poorer people say it more often because it is more important as an issue for them personally. Most people share the view.

The issue remains one of poverty, insecurity and access to services.

LangCleg · 02/06/2018 13:11

I think a lot of (working class but not limited to working class) people understand "racism" as personal prejudice but not as structural inequality. And yes, everyone does need an education about this - personal prejudice + structural inequality = racism.

However, telling someone who has no personal prejudice but does not understand structural inequality that they are racist because they're politically unsavvy and say "wrong things" is not the way to go.

This thread is titled how do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism - well, the way to scourge out racism is not to go about it in a classist way, any more than the way to scourge out classism is to go about it in a racist way.

The woketopians are very good at identifying racism but fucking dreadful at identifying classism.

BeyondSceptical · 02/06/2018 13:23

This thread is titled how do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism - well, the way to scourge out racism is not to go about it in a classist way, any more than the way to scourge out classism is to go about it in a racist way.

The woketopians are very good at identifying racism but fucking dreadful at identifying classism.

Yy.

Italiangreyhound · 02/06/2018 14:19

@LangCleg "I think a lot of (working class but not limited to working class) people understand "racism" as personal prejudice but not as structural inequality. And yes, everyone does need an education about this..."

I think this is very important. Those of us who are white (I am) may really have not understood institutionalized racism. I think there is lots we can learn. But a vital bit of 'learning' is being open to it and receptive.

I really think we females are stronger together and feminism is something that can bring us together.

If someone makes a comment we don't agree with, we can discuss, we can ignore, we can find a way forward. We don't need to dissolve into a goey mess. We are worth more than that!

I think maybe this whole thing has been stoked from people who don't care about us.

We really are stronger together. I'm really sorry for any who have been upset by these debates. But I think we need to move forward together. Flowers Flowers for all you fabulous females of any class/colour/background. Xxxxxx

BeyondSceptical · 02/06/2018 14:23
Flowers Very well said
BeyondSceptical · 02/06/2018 14:24

And something to have a good long ponder over!

LangCleg · 02/06/2018 14:38

Well said, Italian.

Husband just gave me an example of classism in trans discourse.

There is no qualitative difference in saying that transwomen are male people performing femininity and saying transwomen are men in dresses. The meaning is exactly the same. Yet the former is deemed controversial but acceptable while the latter is deemed offensive outright transphobia. Why, when the meaning is identical? Classism. The ability to access academic and/or philosophical language to make a point. This is as exclusionary as anything else.

LangCleg · 02/06/2018 14:40

I think maybe this whole thing has been stoked from people who don't care about us.

Of course it has. But acknowledging that doesn't end the discussion.

NameChangedForThisQ · 02/06/2018 14:48

This thread has opened my eyes re how issues are discussed according to class and how working class people can be shut out of debate and silenced. I am ashamed I didn't recognise this before and I have some classism within myself to work on. THANK YOU

JuzzaL · 02/06/2018 17:50

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JuzzaL · 02/06/2018 17:57

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JoanSummers · 02/06/2018 18:43

Are those fair comparisons JuzzaL?

When TRAs say "Transwomen are women like black women are women" they are literallt saying that black women are just as much (or not) women as trans identified males. This is supposed to a) tap into white supremacist ideas of black women not being 'proper' women and b) appropriate the battle black women have fought to have their womanhood recognised. Has anyone here said anything comparable to that?

When TRAs attack lesbians it is in ways that are highly sexualised - the cotton ceiling for example is a direct accusation that lesbians who do not open themselves sexually to male people who id as trans are committing a hate crime. Has anyone here said anything like that, or pushed any similar pressure on to young lesbians discovering their sexuality? Are women here guilt tripping lesbians into unwanted sex with them with social pressure?

Madigan is a political figure whose role is to represent and support women, including Muslim women. There is a huge difference between women, mostly feminists, criticising religious practices, and a political representative (allegedly) for women suggesting that Muslim need "reeducating" into lowering their boundaries for male benefit.

So easy for white, heterosexual, non-Muslims to sit there and say this isn't racist, this isn't Islamophobic, this isn't homophobic, this isn't transphobic.

That is a lot of assumptions you are making about many of us in this discussion. Several (most?) of us aren't even saying any of that, just that we want to listen and talk and ask questions about this stuff as we think that is a good way to learn about each other and build solidarity as women. That women from all different walks of life are going to have problematic assumptions about each other that need challenging.

Are your comparisons fair? I don't think so, but I'm prepared for you to argue your point?

JoanSummers · 02/06/2018 18:45

Correction to previous post

a political representative (allegedly) for women suggesting that Muslim women need "reeducating"

JuzzaL · 02/06/2018 19:09

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JoanSummers · 02/06/2018 19:33

Proved your point how?

I'm not on multiple forms of social media and I haven't had time to read all of these threads, I've been doing mum duties for a lot of the day. You appear to be comparing what women have said here to the dehumanising and sexualised things that men, mostly affluent white men, are saying to and about women from minority groups. I don't think that is fair and I am asking you to reconsider or explain that comparison.

Do you think it is unreasonable to ask you that? Do you think that asking you that affirms all your assumptions about me?

LangCleg · 02/06/2018 19:56

How do you think we can best get rid of classism from feminism, Juzza?

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