How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

[Treesybreezy]

I need to apologize upfront - I am disabled and also looking after a baby so I'm not going to be able to check back on this thread as frequently as I'd like. I will be back tho.

I've just read this by sister outrider sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/amp/?__twitter_impression=true . I know there have been other threads where black women (or other ethnicities) have said, racism is a massive problem and there's been a large, reflexive defensive reaction from white women here.

I'm too tired to articulate this properly now in support of what sister outrider has said, but I've definitely seen both racism and classism in action.

How do we set this right?

JuzzaL, on the internet no one knows if you are a potato.

Bashing women because you're a bigot is counter productive.

Thank you for that, JuzzaL. There was a risk that some had not yet recognized what they were seeing.

Maybe singling out a poster like JuzzaL and declaring consporacy theories derails a thread?

Idk just putting it out there.

Just to be clear, people think the way to end racism isn’t, say, white people holding each other accountable and challenging bigotry and refusing to condone racism, but rather WOC being nice to racists, accepting that racists just don’t know and couldn’t possibly learn better, not asserting ourselves, not posting to defend ourselves, not saying anything to challenge racist views, accepting that the only problem with racism is the language we use, - and, in short, that the only problem with racism really is WOC who have the nerve to speak about it or expecting white people to do any work to educate themselves, listen, read, etc.

How does challenging sexism by being nice, not challenging men, not being such a b—-chy feminist, setting low bars for men who “just need time to learn”, tone policing, sitting back and waiting work for any of you feminists? Is it ok when men whine about how are they supposed to know how to not sexually harass women, etc.? So why is this what WOC are expected to do, otherwise we’re the ones victimizing and harassing white women?

But at the same time, also, educate white women or its our fault if there’s racism in feminism, but also, be ok with being degraded by those women because otherwise we are divisive, elitist, using language wrong, etc.

ust to be clear, people think the way to end racism isn’t, say, white people holding each other accountable and challenging bigotry and refusing to condone racism, but rather WOC being nice to racists, accepting that racists just don’t know and couldn’t possibly learn better, not asserting ourselves, not posting to defend ourselves, not saying anything to challenge racist views, accepting that the only problem with racism is the language we use, - and, in short, that the only problem with racism really is WOC who have the nerve to speak about it or expecting white people to do any work to educate themselves, listen, read, etc.

What people are these that think this?

MistAmougstElephants
You are right. I lost my temper. I apologize to those who were trying to have a discussion.

I'm no expert bewildereness but as far i as i know that's pretty much what happened on the infamous deleted thread.

Mamaoya It saddens me you think you have to be nice to racists to make them see you as you are (paraphrasing). I don't get it, I just don't get it. Why is it so hard for us all to look at each other and see people, human beings? You and your culture are to be valued and celebrated, it's so sad that so many see you as 'other'.

@thebewilderness: your own posts right here for example accusing people trying to talk about racism as just “bashing another woman”? The posts saying WOC need to not just “scream racist” at women just using the wrong language? The posts in the new Truro thread with so many of you deciding that “those people” have an agenda and the only problem in that thread was people addressing bigotry?

The right time and place to address bigotry is always going to be now when you see it. It cant wait, it can't be put to one side, putting it to one side is how bigotry grows. Violence breeds on silence.

Mamaoya Sun 03-Jun-18 00:26:56 @thebewilderness: your own posts right here for example accusing people trying to talk about racism as just “bashing another woman”? The posts saying WOC need to not just “scream racist” at women just using the wrong language? The posts in the new Truro thread with so many of you deciding that “those people” have an agenda and the only problem in that thread was people addressing bigotry?

I would be deeply ashamed had I said or done any of that.
We have been under attack here by MRAs and transgender advocates for weeks. As a result many of us are cynical and side eye these kinds of collective blaming exercises. They have successfully destroyed many a Feminist blog and forum over the years.
It is quite clear to me that we are talking past one another. I have nothing more to say.
Blame away!

Sorry! One last thing. If you look back through this thread you will find that people were doing what they are being bashed for not doing.

Bewilderness I'm really saddened in your response and hope with fresh eyes you re-read what Mamaoya wrote and think about it. She's been consistent, clear and obviously extended olive branches along the way. I've read maybe 50% of her posts but I've never seen her blame.

Collective blaming = women calling out bigotry.

Blame away = white women are the only victims in this.

You keep doing the exact things you deny are happening anywhere. You keep framing it as innocent white women under attack. Page after page of white women saying the most ignorant stuff, which is ok if the white women just got upset or were in an argument or got emotional, but it’s only women addressing bigotry who destroy boards and communities.

But that’s not telling WOC to shut up, take it, and be nice?

How can you not read the very things you post then gaslight me like I’m making it up?

Mamaoya I'm off to bed, I hope you sleep well and don't take all this to heart (impossible I know).

After three days and three threads of the women here being bashed for what PP said and did on twitter I thought that describing it as collective blame was accurate.
I am not a PP defender but I can see why you would think I am.
As I said, we are talking past one another and I am tired of trying to make myself understood.

I'm being bad and commenting before reading the whole thread, so this may just be seconding others.

I think there are some separate issues here:

1. Treating each other with respect and attention based on what they have to offer, not their bank account, skin color, hijab, etc. From me, and probably from everybody here, that gets a resounding yes.

2. Feminism is about women. We don't have to also be fighting class struggles, racism, or anything else, except in the sense of not adding to injustice. (And other movements ought to bloody well be doing the same for us!) It's not feminism's job to fight other people's battles. Any attempt to require that should be jumped on and squashed immediately.

So, very different reactions depending on what kind of intersectionality is in question.

I haven't read all of the thread - only Bewilderness's last comment- who I trust implicitly.

There are many unfamiliar accounts in the past few days - since the PP thing - who seem to have selective and wilful deafness. Who don't want to listen or engage respectively- btw polite isn't the same as respect when verbal abuse tactics are at play.

The one thing the unfamiliar accounts are demanding is for feminists to change plus defer to their demands plus do the work to implement those demands. One could be forgiven for thinking these unfamiliar accounts have another agenda as those tactics are strangely familiar.

With all due respect it's been the 'regulars' who have been deaf. No one has asked feminism to change and the fact it's been read like that is the problem. If anything we're being asked to behave like radfem feminists and actually practise anti racism and anti classism.

I see this is fem chat but maybe you all belong in theory because your happy to theorise about anti racism and anti classism but that's it.

I will say it again if you don't want to talk about racism and classism in feminism - hide the thread.

Just to be clear, people think the way to end racism isn’t, say, white people holding each other accountable and challenging bigotry and refusing to condone racism, but rather WOC being nice to racists, accepting that racists just don’t know and couldn’t possibly learn better, not asserting ourselves, not posting to defend ourselves, not saying anything to challenge racist views, accepting that the only problem with racism is the language we use, - and, in short, that the only problem with racism really is WOC who have the nerve to speak about it or expecting white people to do any work to educate themselves, listen, read, etc.

Absolute projection. Nobody has said that.

What has been said is that the class-privileged woketopian left's obsession with tone policing and correct terminology is classist in and of itself and excludes non-racist working class people who can't code switch at the drop of a hat and might express themselves clumsily.

Anyway. I'll repeat myself:

Husband just gave me an example of classism in trans discourse.

There is no qualitative difference in saying that transwomen are male people performing femininity and saying transwomen are men in dresses. The meaning is exactly the same. Yet the former is deemed controversial but acceptable while the latter is deemed offensive outright transphobia. Why, when the meaning is identical? Classism. The ability to access academic and/or philosophical language to make a point. This is as exclusionary as anything else.

It is entirely unsurprising if the poorest people are most concerned about poverty or that the language they use to describe their conditions reflects that of the government’s policies.

Well, yes. I have found this in anti-austerity work over the last eight years. I've met dozens of women fucked over by a combination of all the cuts who are in shock because previously they had bought into the all our money is being wasted on benefit claimants narrative pushed by government and abetted by poverty porn TV. Then their husband fucked off/they got made redundant/they had another kid and they found none of this is true now that they themselves had become one of the undeserving poor.