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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie

999 replies

BabyItsAWildWorld · 30/05/2018 12:18

Where the fuck has the Posie thread gone and why??

So posie has views which have got her no platformed by WPUK.

and now MN will not let us discuss her no platforming???

WTF is happening?? How scary is this shit?

The reason I can see given is that the WPUK decision was not to do with MN.

99% of threads are about people/organsitions/decisions not to do with MN. That explanation makes no sense.

Did Posie ask for it to go?

I thought she was getting mostly support on there.

OP posts:
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6
womanformallyknownaswoman · 31/05/2018 15:26

Slightly tongue in cheek but still thinking...

PermissionToSpeakSir · 31/05/2018 15:27
Grin
YetAnotherSpartacus · 31/05/2018 15:27

No easy answers

No there are not. I don't actually see a lot of stuff, but I hear about it and I can tell you that more than a few people who do deal with this on a daily basis probably would not be that upset at forced sterilisation if it prevents one more fucked-up situation and permanently damaged child.

RatRolyPoly · 31/05/2018 15:28

an older woman had suggested recently to me that men should be castrated as a means of birth control

Do you know the mad thing is that in a lot of areas men are asking for vasectomies and being refused unless their female partner has tried all available contraceptive methods!

Apologies - derail - but isn't that nuts??

YetAnotherSpartacus · 31/05/2018 15:31

why not DNA test the babies, then trace and force the men who abuse the women to have vasectomies

The women would not want them DNA tested in many cases. But again I think it an interesting question as to whether men who father multiple children with one or more mothers and then fail to take care of them or abuse them should be allowed to keep reproducing.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 31/05/2018 15:39

Certainly against forced sterilisation but also vehemently against taking hormones in pregnancy, 'breastfeeding' a child by males due to taking hormones or indeed anyone taking any bloody drugs, legal or illegal that will harm a child in utero or while feeding.

Having gender dysphoria does not give a person licence to poison another human being.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 31/05/2018 15:39

Apologies - derail - but isn't that nuts??

Apology & Derail accepted - yes it is nuts - have you got some examples - I haven't heard about this

therealposieparker · 31/05/2018 15:42

Look should is a funny word, it definitely doesn't mean "should be forced".... it didn't even cross my mind that that's what it meant, that anyone would jump on it as if I meant all trans men should be sterilised. I would say transmen who see themselves as men shouldn't carry babies.... does that mean I support rounding up pregnant transmen and forcing them to have terminations.

Seriously.

therealposieparker · 31/05/2018 15:43

See even in that context "should" can mean two things.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 31/05/2018 15:47

Posie - what did you actually say?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 31/05/2018 15:48

But those are your words Posie. You left the sentence open for interpretation and attack. You haven't done the rest of us any favours with shouting your mouth off online. If you have public profile, which you now have and are clearly enjoying, then please don't lose your shit in a twitter war which will reflect badly on all of us.

therealposieparker · 31/05/2018 15:48

The tweet was

Women who think they're men should be sterilised.

It was in response to the 10th tweet I'd read about the cis privilege of abortion and exclusionary language, that poor trans men would be excluded.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 31/05/2018 15:48

Yes I think it is strange that people take it to mean advocating a programme of state enforced sterilisation. I think it is the subtlety of the word 'be'.

'Should get sterilised' suggests autonomy.

'Should be sterilised' suggests being acted upon by someone else.

Perhaps that's the reason.

Ereshkigal · 31/05/2018 15:50

Ereshkigal I don't buy Posies explanation and others don't either.

Your prerogative. But don't make assumptions about those who don't think it's what she meant.

therealposieparker · 31/05/2018 15:51

PTSS.

Yes, the "be" makes a difference I guess.

spontaneousgiventime · 31/05/2018 15:51

Ereshkigal I made no assumptions, hence the question mark at the end of my comment!

Ereshkigal · 31/05/2018 15:55

Ok spontaneous. Crossed wires.

spontaneousgiventime · 31/05/2018 15:56

Ereshkigal No problem, it happens.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 31/05/2018 15:57

Thanks Posie.

I actually do find that a confronting statement taken out of context.

I think my overriding thought is that twitter is simply not the medium for the kinds of nuanced debate that is needed re this and similar issues because of the limited character count and the politicised context. Fundamentally, twitter does not allow for exploration and nuance.

BeyondSceptical · 31/05/2018 16:02

If posie has been losing her shit publicly on twitter, I've missed it - all I have seen are a few pissed off posts here. And women are allowed to be pissed off, I'm sure you won't disagree with that!

I hope everyone unhappy with her "doubling down" though (cause I'm sure no one would be angry if she retracted her words either...), totally approves of this... twitter.com/womans_place_uk/status/1002138407865339905?s=21
(Possibly the exact opposite of posies tweets, where the tweet looks great on its own, but less so in the context)

RatRolyPoly · 31/05/2018 16:04

womanformally dammit, I can't find any reference now but I'm sure I could in the past! It was to do with the rationing of NHS vasectomies as a cost saving measure. Certain health trusts were quizzing men on their partner's contraceptive history and suggesting alternatives for her to try before a referral would be made for him.

All I can find now is reference to the rationing across trusts. Oh well, perhaps that means it doesn't happen anymore.

nauticant · 31/05/2018 16:10

That's a bonkers approach BeyondSceptical. WomansPlaceUK should either disown Posie's "sterilised" tweet directly or not refer to it. This kind of oblique "some people might say..." while studiously not looking at the target person comes across as pretty childish.

Pratchet · 31/05/2018 16:17

Agree with assigned. I don't think women should be sterilised but if they're pumped full of T no they shouldn't be getting pregnant, nobody knows what the adverse effects are. Jeez.

SuperDandy · 31/05/2018 16:45

PermissionToSpeakSir: "It is ridiculous to birth a child and call yourself a man. Reproducing is a sexed thing. If you want to do it then you are admitting your sex and need to stop dicking the world around with your bullshit claims of dysphoria."

Round we go again.

A major objection that is used again and again on this board is that transitioning of young people is bad because it may affect their fertility in ways they are not mature enough to fully comprehend and give consent to.

But according to above post, and others in a similar vein, if a trans person wants to make use of their fertility then that is taken to mean they are ridiculous and that their experience of dysphoria is bullshit.

CharlieParley · 31/05/2018 16:49

HarryLovesDraco thanks for posting that - it actually brought some clarity to my thinking.

What I object to so strongly is the generalisation being made here:

Gentle reminder that “gender critical” people aren’t just abhorrently prejudiced against trans women, they think disgusting, vile stuff like this about trans men too

Having now met a huge number of people from all walks of life who oppose self-id, from anarchist lefty backgrounds over centrists all the way to religious right wingers, there's actually a huge disparity in what they believe regarding trans people.

The GC feminists I met are accepting of trans people, supportive of their struggle and rights as well as concerned about women's rights and the safeguarding of children. And they have many different positions on pronouns, sharing spaces and what rights they are willing to concede to post-op and medically transitioning people.

The religious (right and left - and yes lefty religious people do exist) are completely split into many different responses to trans people too - some are supportive, some are not, some are outright hateful. Most however are not the least bit gender critical - that's a feminist position and most of the very religious people I've met don't agree with feminist beliefs either.

However, TRAs like the one who wrote that tweet do not distinguish between a position that says trans people are an abomination or those who say they should not be allowed to transition on the NHS and those who say yes to trans rights and to supporting trans people but maintain that it isn't possible for mammals to change sex or that gender ideology enforces harmful gender stereotypes.

The TRA default position is that unless you accept all of their ideology, you're a despiccable evil bigot.

So Posie tweets a thing in a standalone tweet and TRAs take it as proof of what they already and always accuse all GC people of - that we hate them and everything about them.

But that's clearly a nonsense. Those opposed to self-id have wide-ranging views and given their vastly differing backgrounds that should come as no surprise.

I see absolutely no point in demanding that only those whose views otherwise align with mine be allowed to join me in this fight, which is why I disagree with vilifying Posie in this way.

Her position that transmen who want to live and be recognised as men should be sterilised is mainstream in many, many countries - and many transmen do actually want to be and/or accept that this is the outcome of transitioning. I don't need to agree with her to understand why Posie thinks what she thinks.

WPUK made a decision based on how they wish to be perceived and I actually don't have a problem with that - freedom of speech does not equal freedom from consequences after all. I don't agree with their reasoning or how they did it. I honestly thought better of them and therefore fully expected them to contact Posie first to let her know they were not happy and what they wanted to do because of that. But WPUK is also just made up of individuals who have their own flaws.

IMHO Posie's words have not made a blind bit of difference to TRAs other than giving them one more soundbite out of many hundreds of utterings made by GC people daily - it's no worse than Long's parasitic squatters for instance.

I've seen so many words twisted and taken out of context by TRAs, some even edited and manipulated to make them seem transphobic and that's why I cannot get pissed off at Posie for what she said as "damaging to the cause".

The cause is damaging to TRAs and no matter how softly we tread and how uncontroversial we behave, we will always be the enemy. With or without Posie.