Posie

[BabyItsAWildWorld]

Where the fuck has the Posie thread gone and why??

So posie has views which have got her no platformed by WPUK.

and now MN will not let us discuss her no platforming???

WTF is happening?? How scary is this shit?

The reason I can see given is that the WPUK decision was not to do with MN.

99% of threads are about people/organsitions/decisions not to do with MN. That explanation makes no sense.

Did Posie ask for it to go?

I thought she was getting mostly support on there.

You may think seeing a girl in a hijab is disgusting and oppressive, but many Muslim women would disagree with that and deny that this represents their own experiences.

Yes, and there are others who disagree with them. I know because I've read articles by them despairing at the cultural relativism of western feminists.

This idea that white women need to STFU because brown women ENJOY being oppressed is ridiculous.

That’s not what I’m saying. And if you knew anything about the Muslim community in the UK then you would know that there are already quite a few charity orgs, run by Muslim women, campaigning for women’s rights on things like FGM and forced marriage.

Muslim women aren’t a hive mind, indeed. Nor are they, or Muslim men, one homogeneous cultural group.

Again, it is ok to point out that religious doctorines have been abused by patriarchal systems to deny women rights.

But not that the religion in itself is inherently abusive. None of these religious texts demand sexual abuse or oppression. It’s all down to interpretation.

And BTW, nowhere in the Koran is the oppression of women mandadted. Koranic teaching and The Sharia laws of Saudi Arabia are two different and separate things. Both much and widely debated in the Muslim community.

But you would know that if you knew anything about Islam.

Can we please stop conflating religion with racism? Catholics are all races and nations as is Islam.

Already we have had posters assuming that every woman in Ireland is Catholic.

Already there are posters assuming that every Muslim woman wears a veil.

And all assume that only those women have a say in how things can change.

I have a real problem when we can't say something obviously misogynistic is misogynistic, in any culture. Many Muslim women would choose to wear hijab and they talk about it and blog about it etc. And many others wouldn't. But most of them are voiceless due to patriarchal misogyny.

HarryLovesDraco that is a very insightful post and I agree fully with what you say. Posie's assumption that we vilify white men but let Asian men get away with anything represents a deep sort of ignorance that is prevalent in much of the Daily Mail's writings on Muslims. It does not represent reality.

TBH- I get what you are all trying to say about free speech. And Posie has every right to make herself look like an ass on Twitter.

Just do some fucking research and maybe do a listening exercise before you make sweeping and derogatory statements about a whole massive group of people.

How not to look like a racist twat 101, really.

Just do some fucking research and maybe do a listening exercise before you make sweeping and derogatory statements about a whole massive group of people.

Are you talking to yourself MissSusanSays ?

Because, from an Irish woman's point of view, you really do come across as borderline racist.

"PP also criticises children wearing hijab and calls it 'disgusting'. Does she have a clue what it's like being visibly Muslim in this country? Or perceived to be Muslim? Does she understand that racial prejudice can't be removed like a piece of cloth covering the head and that wearing symbols of faith and community is a form of safety, of protest against a society that is overtly, dangerously racist?"

This is a load of crap though isn't it.

It's not form of safety or a form of protest against a racist society. The UK is NOT dangerous for Muslims. That's a ridiculous narrative.

These pre-pubescent girls who wore a headscarf www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44105279, and were used as human bombs by their parents did not experience racism, they lived in an area where they were the dominant race/religion/economic group. The reason they wore a scarf is patriarchal religious brainwashing.

Of course you can say it’s misogynistic Ereshkigal. Just don’t make massive sweeping statements.

‘Islam is misogynistic’ is actually not true.

‘The practice of Islam in Yemen is oppressive to women and girls. And is used a justification of violence against women and girls.’ Is true.

We’re supposed to be all about truths and reality here. Making massive, unresearched genealisations about things make us look as dumb as some of the TRAs. One of the strengths of this board is careful research and evidenced positions.

Can we please stop conflating religion with racism? Catholics are all races and nations as is Islam.

Yes, although the vast vast majority of Muslims in this country are non-white and Posie has specifically focused on the Pakistani community (as seen in her tweet about Bradford). It's too simplistic to say it has nothing to do with race- all the men that Tommy Robinson writes and vlogs about all come from the same racial background. In this country, there is also ample evidence that having a certain skin colour will lead to assumptions that you are a Muslim. The situation is more nuanced than saying that race and religion are two separate issues.

In any event, the problem is sweeping generalisations made by a privileged white woman who is using her own experiences to judge a culture that she knows relatively little about. She dismisses it as 'disgusting'. That is deeply problematic. She has made no effort to understand it or to make the voices of Muslim women heard. It's an attitude that reeks of colonialism where the whites saw themselves as benevolently civilising the 'savages', but with absolutely disastrous repercussions.

This by Priyamvada Gopal, an academic at Cambridge, helps to explain a little bit why this is such a problematic issue with so many layers:
medium.com/@zen.catgirl/response-to-mary-beard-91a6cf2f53b6

Hi Elendon

Did I say all Irish woman are Catholic? Point it out to me.

Or, did I suggest that there was a need for the Catholic women of Ireland- the religion that is firmly against abortion in all circumstances and influential in the anti- abortion laws- to be on board and campaigning for their own rights.

My family are Irish. Of course I know that there more than Catholic people in Ireland. And that they suffered under the stringent abortion laws and campaigned against them. It was a massive success for everyone. Done together. As part of a conversation. Finding out what others though and changing their minds if you could.

You were the one who jumped to an assumption on my behalf.

The UK is NOT dangerous for Muslims. That's a ridiculous narrative.

It depends what you mean by dangerous. Over the years, they have been subject to racial violence (because nearly all muslims are non-white), hideous representations in the media, abuse on the streets, on public transport etc. I was on a bus and saw a white guy go up to a Muslim woman in a hijab and spit right in her face before getting off the bus. There are countless reports in the media of attacks that are motivated by a belief that the victim is Muslim (which usually means they have brown skin). I would say that calling it a 'ridiculous narrative' is being extremely wilfully blind to what Muslims go through in this country.

"No, but it means having to recognise that things are not as black and white as they appear from your vantage point. You may think seeing a girl in a hijab is disgusting and oppressive, but many Muslim women would disagree with that and deny that this represents their own experiences. It's a highly complex situation and it's always problematic when people from a certain group blindly insist that their way is the correct one and that no other way of life is acceptable. "

Why are you talking about women? This was a tweet about 7 year old girls.

Lots of women agree with some really horrific things in different cultures and countries, I'm not quite sure why you think we shouldn't judge, if for example women of a particular background believe, for example, that prostitutes being murdered is just desserts, or that if you are wearing immodest clothing you have yourself to blame for rape, or whatever else.

Where does your moral relativism begin and end?

There are plenty of Muslims who say that hijab for prepubescent girls is wrong and offensive, are non-Muslims not allowed to agree or express an opinion? Should Muslims be forbidden from commenting on issues that divide, say, Catholics?

It's an attitude that reeks of colonialism where the whites saw themselves as benevolently civilising the 'savages', but with absolutely disastrous repercussions.

Can I guffaw at this?

You quoted me Peaks, an Irish woman and then deign to lecture me on 'colonialism' Feck me. You couldn't make it up.

The UK is NOT dangerous for Muslims. That's a ridiculous narrative

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-29424165/muslim-hate-crime-rises-65-in-london
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hate-crime-muslims-mosques-islamist-extremism-terrorism-terror-attacks-a7989746.html%3famp

more practically I have a big issue with PP calling on a primary school to 'sort it out' when 13/15 of the girls in a class were wearing headscarves.

sort it out how?

refuse to educate girls wearing headscarves?

force the girls to remove the headscarves in the school without their parents knowledge?

Cover the girls with a big sheet so as to avoid offending Posie?

Or not make fucking stupid sweeping generalisations on twitter? Have a little think about what you actually mean and say that maybe?

Good God. This is like debating with my mother.

No one is saying don’t discuss the issues. But they are nuanced issues widely debated in that community too.

Go find out more than the inflammatory sound bites you’ve read on Twitter.

Maybe donate some money or do some work for this charity: www.karmanirvana.org.uk/

Or maybe this charity: www.mwnuk.co.ukm/

Or just don’t be so ignorant.

You quoted me Peaks, an Irish woman and then deign to lecture me on 'colonialism' Feck me. You couldn't make it up.

Where is the problem? I didn't know you were Irish. Can you really see no analogy whatsoever between a white nation forcibly bringing 'civilisation' to a non-white nation and a white middle-class woman dismissing a religion she knows nothing about as 'disgusting'? None at all? You genuinely think it is the place of someone like Posie Parker to make these sweeping judgements? Yet you take offence when someone else makes what you call sweeping statements about Ireland?

Also, the comment about colonialism relates entirely to Posie, not you.

force the girls to remove the headscarves in the school without their parents knowledge?

My son goes to an all boys secondary with a mixed sixth form. All are forced to remove a hoodie should they come into school wearing it.

No need to contact the parents either. It is forbidden for a boy to wear a hoodie, even in primary school.

"It depends what you mean by dangerous. "

I wasn't aware that 'dangerous' was particularly ambiguous.

As I understand it the overwhelming majority of hate incidents dealt with by the police are racially motivated, such as anti-black prejudice. And per head of population, anti-semitic incidents are more common than anti-Muslim incidents.

Prejudice is everywhere in the world against minority groups, however the narrative of a headscarf as a special symbol of identity among a particularly oppressed minority is nonsensical. Headscarf wearing has increased and indeed been compelled in many parts of the world that are homogenously Islamic. To paint the wearing of a headscarf as a response to prejudice in Britain is disingenuous at best.

Elendon to compare it to a hoodie... Not sure what to say really?

Is it just the hijab you object to? Would you force a Sikh to remove a turban? Would a Christian be forced to remove a crucifix?

I wasn't aware that 'dangerous' was particularly ambiguous.

Of course it is! I could say that danger is only related to physical violence for instance. So by that token, I could say a child verbally bullied at school is not in any danger. But that is way too narrow of course because words can cause severe harm too. The woman I mentioned in my example was not in physical danger when being spat on. Yet, I am sure the incident left long-lasting repercussions.

As I understand it the overwhelming majority of hate incidents dealt with by the police are racially motivated, such as anti-black prejudice. And per head of population, anti-semitic incidents are more common than anti-Muslim incidents.

Anti-semitic incidents are of course as disgusting as anti-Muslim ones but you seriously have no idea what you are talking about by denying that Islamophobia is an issue. Are you saying Muslims are not exposed to hate in this country? Because they bloody well are. Yes, they may not be blown up and stabbed, but this country is not a pleasant place to live, especially post-Brexit. We have had mosques set on fire, families persecuted, horrific narratives in the media- the list is endless.

We’re supposed to be all about truths and reality here.

Yes and the truth and the reality is that young girls in Rotherham and Rochdale and other places suffered in part because people who were supposed to protect them didn't want to touch the race/culture issue with a barge pole.

The truth and the reality is that women were sexually abused en masse in Cologne on New Years Eve in a specific form of assault used in some Muslim countries and this was largely dismissed in the media and it was suggested that women should stay indoors by officials, rather than it being considered a problem with the men or any kind of cultural issue that should be noted or addressed in any way.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NewYear'ssEvesexuallassaultsinn_Germany

The truth and reality is that men have tried both in this country and others to get off sexual assault cases by saying that they didn't understand that it would be illegal because certain women/girls who are immodest are available to everyone.

Elendon

I have lost all respect for you as a poster based on your fairly ignorant defence of Posie, just as i’ve lost all respect for Posie.

Being from a culture that has suffered oppression does not prevent the bigoted and ignorant remarks you are making from being bigoted and ignorant.

Having suffered oppression does not make it ok to oppress others and deny them religious and cultural freedom of expression.