Posie

[BabyItsAWildWorld]

Where the fuck has the Posie thread gone and why??

So posie has views which have got her no platformed by WPUK.

and now MN will not let us discuss her no platforming???

WTF is happening?? How scary is this shit?

The reason I can see given is that the WPUK decision was not to do with MN.

99% of threads are about people/organsitions/decisions not to do with MN. That explanation makes no sense.

Did Posie ask for it to go?

I thought she was getting mostly support on there.

What an inane statement to make.
No, it’s not. Would the campaign have succeeded if it had been a push from the outside, just from UK feminists?

There were lots of different groups involved in that campaign. But without Irish women, especially ones of a Catholic background that knew the taboos and had grown up in the community, but still wanted change, it would not have gained as much traction.

Without the internal push campaigns like this can look like cultural imperialism.

So, with respect, I suggested Posie talk to some Muslim women about their experiences of their community and what they want.

Because if we start campaigning based on what we assume women want then we are essentially ignoring the needs of women.

And I do find the clumsily implied assumption that Muslim men are misogynists racist.

It’s not Muslim men. It’s men. Male violence.

Are you aware of the enourmous child sexual exploitation ring in Oxford? Probably not, all the perps are white males.

Or the child exploration ring in Stratford upon Avon? Again, not reported. All white British perps. And mostly teen boys trafficked.

And THIS is why Twitter is reductive.

Women are my community,

There were lots of different groups involved in that campaign. But without Irish women, especially ones of a Catholic background that knew the taboos and had grown up in the community, but still wanted change, it would not have gained as much traction.

You've changed your tune somewhat, though it's still an incredibly naive viewpoint. You do realise the Repeal campaign has had 'traction' since 1983?

Oh an men were allowed to vote as well. Perhaps they had a say in the matter? Men overwhelmingly, like women voted for change.

You do realise the Repeal campaign has had 'traction' since 1983?

Yes. But would it have been successful without the drive and support of the very women directly affected? Was it those women campaigning or just people from outside Ireland?

Would a vote in Ireland have been won without Irish women and men making a cultural shift in their own country?

Are you trying to say this happened without them?

"Right- but they aren't transphobic nor a hate group. So platforming a speaker who has made what appear to be both transphobic and racially motivated hateful statements in public is the last thing they need to do."

The issue at this point is not the platforming, but the DEplatforming.

The two are not the same.

They just needed to let this go off then not invite her back.

Simple.

Quite a turn around thread.

Really wish people understood Islam and the abuse cases more so they can see how off the mark Posie is. Her comments are cringe to me. Her thinking over this is not in depth and that may be because twitter isnt the place for in-depth thoughts being shared. Or it may be because she has some repungent views.

I've been disappointed and saddened at the right wing nature to the yes lets have a self id debate. I think you can have an issue with self id and still be 'woke' or lefty or just not a hateful person.

Islamophobia is a nonsense cry. It's an attempt to silence critics of theology and the issue it raises is exactly the same issue that WPUK are trying to raise.
Why is it Transphobic to point out that a transwoman is actually man. Why is it Islamophobic to point out that 'taharrush gamea' (google it) is Islamic rape culture. Why? Because they are heretical ideas in a world of socialist inclusivity.
Heresy is a cradle. That’s it. Difficult and supposedly dangerous ideas are precisely the ones you should expose yourselves to. That is the New World of thought and debate you should venture into. So stop No Platforming, stop hounding heretics off campus, stop treating ideas as diseases and disagreement as violence and dissenting speech as hate speech. Instead, say what you believe, and let others say what they believe. Express your true thoughts. Give voice even to your heretical beliefs. Here’s mine: bread can never become flesh, Islam is not a peaceful feminist religion and a man can never become a woman.

So, with respect, I suggested Posie talk to some Muslim women about their experiences of their community and what they want.

I don't think Muslim women are a hive mind, are they?

All patriarchal religions are misogynistic.

Posie women are your community? Lovely. But that doesn't mean you get to speak on the experiences of women whose backgrounds you do not share or know, they have voices let them use them.

What if she is signal boosting women who don't feel empowered to speak? She has a platform.

I find it a bit depressing that you think the onus is solely on Muslim women who are unhappy or abused to speak out about misogyny and put themselves at personal risk and risk of ostracism. It's a tricky balance yes, but it's one that's important to achieve.

Mist. I only really know my own background.... should I only ever give a shit about myself?

Well that was rather my point. They have no reputation to preserve, people already think they are bigots.

So the solution is to just allow people with bigoted views then? That's a poor argument. WPUK obviously wants to fight the accusation that they are transphobic or bigoted. Otherwise their concerns will never be taken seriously. Doesn't help then if some loudmouth talks about sterilisation and supports Tommy Robinson does it?

FWIW I do not think Islam is immune from criticism at all. However, it is an argument that needs to be made very carefully and not in the terms of 'Muslims rape white girls'. That doesn't help. My view is that all organised religion is bad for women and oppresses them. I also believe that we need to completely decouple religion from the state. I am as horrified as anyone by grooming gangs, but we also cannot lose sight of the fact that white men also groom and abuse children. People like Tommy Robinson never focus on that though- it's all about the Muslims.

Calling people cunts on twitter and saying they are ugly and weird or repeatedly singling one person out as a child abuser is very counter-productive. What does she expect to achieve with this? Also, cancelling her speech is not no-platforming. She has a platform as far as I can see. That's what's got her into this mess.

Really wish people understood Islam and the abuse cases more so they can see how off the mark Posie is.

Genuine question because I want to know if I'm missing something. What do people need to understand about Islam and the abuse cases that they currently don't?

Eresh, that's why I don't think it's so cut and dried - I know more Muslim women who agree with posies stance than disagree.

I'm not convinced it is right for a woman who isn't Muslim to speak on behalf of behalf of a Muslim women in the one direction, if it isn't in the other. Iyswim

"So, with respect, I suggested Posie talk to some Muslim women about their experiences of their community and what they want.

Because if we start campaigning based on what we assume women want then we are essentially ignoring the needs of women. "

So go to Somalia and speak to the many women who endorse FGM?

I can introduce her to many Muslim women who fully believe men have a need for sex, prostitutes, and so on, while women must be chaste. I'm not sure if we are supposed to just nod sagely and agree? The comparison to Ireland doesn't make any kind of sense, Ireland is an anglophone country that was not far from the UK in social attitudes. How is that kind of attitude supposed to help women in rural Bangladesh for example?

"And I do find the clumsily implied assumption that Muslim men are misogynists racist.

It’s not Muslim men. It’s men. Male violence. "

Well no, it's both. You can be anti-male violence AND anti-religion. I don't see why that is controversial. Religion is used by men to control women. There are many aspects of Islam that men use to enable their violence. It's BIZARRE on the one hand to say 'it's men', but then say that Islam, which was created by men, has nothing to do with it.

Islam, specifically, tells women they must wear a veil or a scarf. If you ask the women they will likely tell you they agree with it. But were they wearing it 30 or 40 years ago? In many parts of the world, no they weren't. So what has changed?

This idea that white women need to STFU because brown women ENJOY being oppressed is ridiculous.

I don't think Muslim women are a hive mind, are they

That’s exactly my point. Without talking to a community and getting a cross section of experiences and opinions, how can you hope to understand what is actually going on?

Posie’s tweet were lazy assumptions. They kind I would expect of a not very bright high school student with no experience of the world.

It is not Islamaphobia to ask questions about commninty practices or beliefs.

It IS Islamaphobia to make sweeping accusations about the entire, frankly fucking massive and diverse, Islamic community based on the actions of a few people.

Why is not ok to say ‘All Muslims are Terrorists’ but is ok to suggest Muslim men are misogynistic and have a tendency to be abusers?

Clue- there’s no difference.

Have a conversation but don’t make infantile sweeping statements.

Susan

But would it have been successful without the drive and support of the very women directly affected? Was it those women campaigning or just people from outside Ireland?

Have you read the #hometovote twitter page?

You do understand Irish immigration? This went beyond religion and sex and national boundaries. It was about reproductive rights for all women in Ireland.

Also I think the parents of Savita Halappanavar, who live in India and are not Catholic, had an interest in the vote too.

Sorry italics fail:

Really wish people understood Islam and the abuse cases more so they can see how off the mark Posie is.

Please could you clarify what's being missed Mist? Genuine good faith question.

Yes mist

Framing CSE gangs as a racial or cultural problem is incredibly ignorant. In fact PP has been provided with credible research around the perpetrators of CSE and chooses to ignore it.
PP also states that white perpetrators can be openly vilified but that Muslim perpetrators are above criticism. That is racism and white privilege/blindness. There is a reason the general public believe all the grooming gangs were Asian men- and it's not because they were all Asian men.
One of the biggest common denominators of CSE grooming gangs is the night time economy. Networks of men working in takeaways, hotel night staff and taxi drivers. A moment's thought about why Asian and Muslim men are over represented in these low paid, anti social sectors might give a clue as to why the gangs appear to be mostly Asian, or the most visible perpetrators are Asian. Again, white privilege and white blindness failing to see the wider cultural issues that shape the way we perceive issues like CSE gangs.

PP also criticises children wearing hijab and calls it 'disgusting'. Does she have a clue what it's like being visibly Muslim in this country? Or perceived to be Muslim? Does she understand that racial prejudice can't be removed like a piece of cloth covering the head and that wearing symbols of faith and community is a form of safety, of protest against a society that is overtly, dangerously racist?

PP is outraged at the idea that she is being called racist because she genuinely doesn't believe she is. But she is - she really is. She sits in a position of vast privilege, and is blind to how that affects her perception of the world.

Have a conversation but don’t make infantile sweeping statements

Yet you continue to do that Susan

That’s exactly my point. Without talking to a community and getting a cross section of experiences and opinions, how can you hope to understand what is actually going on?

Yes, I agree, no issue with that.

Mist. I only really know my own background...should I only ever give a shit about myself?

No, but it means having to recognise that things are not as black and white as they appear from your vantage point. You may think seeing a girl in a hijab is disgusting and oppressive, but many Muslim women would disagree with that and deny that this represents their own experiences. It's a highly complex situation and it's always problematic when people from a certain group blindly insist that their way is the correct one and that no other way of life is acceptable. Historically, that has been a very difficult position and has led to untold problems.