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Original poster

Germaine Greer on rape - controversial

85 replies

Cwenthryth · 28/05/2018 07:49

twitter.com/channel4news/status/999946049530859527

Just came across this on Twitter. Only seen the clip so far going to watch the whole thing shortly.... haven’t seen this discussed anywhere else here yet.

I get what she’s saying - don’t let the shitty things that happen to you define you.

But saying “I didn’t want my story to be I was raped, that’s not my story”. But it clearly is a part of your story, Germaine, whether you want it to be or not. You weren’t ‘in the wrong place’ as if lightning struck you, your rape wasn’t an inevitability, it was an act of sexual violence by a man against you that should not have happened.

And whatever someone’s reaction is to shitty things that happen to them - their reaction is their reaction, there isn’t a right and wrong way to react and this clip sounds dangerously close to shaming rape victims if they react in a different way to you. KGM wasn’t helping trying to put the “not that bad” soundbite in her mouth though.

OP posts:
Original poster
Cwenthryth · 28/05/2018 07:49

Sorry clicky link

twitter.com/channel4news/status/999946049530859527

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just1post · 28/05/2018 07:52

I agree with her to be honest.

I think there is a lot of narrative that insists rape is the most awful and traumatic thing a woman can go through and while I wouldn’t take that away from another woman, it doesn’t apply to me.

dudsville · 28/05/2018 07:53

I haven't clicked but I do think she has a right to chose how she defines her experiences. Also traumas don't affect everyone in the same way. We need flexibility. Rape is wrong but the impact of rape is not the same for everyone.

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 28/05/2018 07:53

This is the full interview - 45 mins long

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just1post · 28/05/2018 07:58

Problem with GG is that she can be quite inflexible in her approach - it didn’t affect me, so ...

But I do think she is quite correct. We have been raised to see our virginity as prized and sacred. Rape, even if one isn’t a virgin at the time, is seen as so awful because of this prevailing view.

BeesAndMist · 28/05/2018 07:58

I’ve said this before and been slaughtered for saying it on here. I just said I didn’t want rape to define me, I was upset and annoyed with myself at the timebut it really isn’t somoerhing that I think about. It doesn’t play on my mind at all. The man that did it time is a complete bastard and I hate him. But it hasn’t affected any of my actions throughout my life. I haven’t felt I’ve had to not do certain things because once upon a time I was raped. I can completely understand how it could completely destroy someone. But that didn’t happen to me nd I’m not going to be made to feel that I’m wrong because of this.

Offred · 28/05/2018 08:06

I have no problem with her handling her own experience in whatever way she has.

I have an issue with her trying to impose how she handled it on other women.

TBH it’s weird that she was going on about not knowing why people don’t report because there’s no evidence but then getting dangerously close to saying her feelings = how everyone should feel.

I have noticed that feeling like you have agency is necessary for healing and also that it is not uncommon for people to gain a feeling of agency through various degrees of ‘not a big deal’.

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 28/05/2018 08:10

I’m just getting to this part of the actual interview now (from around 12 mins or so in), it evolves from a conversation about rose McGowan. The more I’m watching I’m getting pissed off that C4 have edited that clip in the most inflammatory way - even switched around the order Greer said things.

The thing is that everyone’s individual reaction is just that, their own individual reaction, and it isn’t wrong. So telling people they’re wrong for any reaction just isn’t cricket.

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kesstrel · 28/05/2018 08:26

We have been raised to see our virginity as prized and sacred. Rape, even if one isn’t a virgin at the time, is seen as so awful because of this prevailing view.

Yes, this makes me think of the ethos from ancient Rome and Greece, and from our own medieval period that women should kill themselves rather than be raped, or even kill themselves afterward. And I think other cultures sometimes have the same convention. It's related to the notion that women's and a family's "honour" depends on women's bodies being "chaste", because women's bodies belong to the males who control them. That's not to minimise the trauma or crime of rape, but you do have to wonder if these lingering attitudes contribute to making it worse.

Offred · 28/05/2018 08:28

It’s too complicated for sound bites TBH so that doesn’t surprise me 🙄

Evan stark in coercive control did a really good job of handling these issues IMO, though he wasn’t specifically writing about rape.

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 28/05/2018 08:29

The rest of the interview is amazing by the way. I’ve still got 10 mins to go but this is well worth 45 mins of your time.

Fucking C4 trying to paint this interview as GG says rape isn’t that bad.

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borntobequiet · 28/05/2018 08:33

I was raped once in my teens and once in my 20s. I wasn’t particularly upset, except for the possibility of disease or pregnancy, and moved on. Many other incidents have defined me and my life, but not these ones. I am simply describing my own experience and cannot comment on that of others.

boatyardblues · 28/05/2018 08:34

I think there is a lot of narrative that insists rape is the most awful and traumatic thing a woman can go through and while I wouldn’t take that away from another woman, it doesn’t apply to me.

I remember reading an article in the 90s about someone who’d done research with women who had been raped, with the cohort very mixed. The researcher noted that some of the more elderly women (at the time of their assault) were more sanguine about their experiences. They were viewing it through a lens where some of their other life experiences, particularly wartime events and more recent bereavements, had been more traumatic for them. From that point of view, Greer may have a point that your perpective on events is important, but its not appropriate for her to generalise that this should be the case for all women. It is a highly personal matter.

RJnomore1 · 28/05/2018 08:34

I was raised in a Christian (ha) religion which published literature that stated you had the right to fight to the death - yours or his - to maintain your virginity or marital fidelity from a rapist.

Basically if you were raped and alive you hadn't fought hard enough abd had cheated.

Fucking appalling message. I agrEe with GG I think.

MissGiddyPants · 28/05/2018 08:38

Some women on here would have me believe that I was raped, because I had sex with a bloke to shut him up and get rid of him.

I agree with GG.

Offred · 28/05/2018 08:38

I think she’s wrong re equality. Certainly if you take a narrow lib fem style view re equality and only concern yourself with achieving equality (of opportunity, of earnings, of status etc) within waged work within capitalism then she’s absolutely correct.

However, that’s only one tiny and very specific aspect of equality. It’s extremely narrow thinking IMO to think the concept of equality needs to be thrown out because where people are centring the fight for it is wrong and narrow.

just1post · 28/05/2018 09:01

I think the trick is that rather than seeing rape as something to be upset about, we should see it as something to be angry about.

How fucking dare you, rather than I can never show my face again.

We don’t have to minimise our contempt for those who do it, but we can acknowledge we are not destroyed by it.

lovetheway · 28/05/2018 09:05

I remember when I was younger, seeing the phrase 'a fate worse than death' and being totally bemused. But of course the idea is that a Good Woman would kill herself if raped. And you still see that with the conviction rates for rape - 'Well, she didn't seem that upset'.

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 28/05/2018 09:07

I have an issue with her trying to impose how she handled it on other women.

I think the trick is that rather than seeing rape as something to be upset about, we should see it as something to be angry about.

Agree with both these statements.

I actually think the theme of this thread should morph into being pissed off about C4 trying to manipulate the story to being “Greer offends women who have been raped”. Their edited clip on Twitter is misrepresenting the meaning of what she said.

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LizzieSiddal · 28/05/2018 09:13

I agree with her too and it’s good to hear someone saying this in the public eye.

Offred · 28/05/2018 09:32

Having watched the whole thing now, I think it’s Greer being Greer TBH.

She’s often very forthright and sweeping and this is both her best and her worst quality!

I do know I spent years in denial after the first time I was raped actually saying things to other women like ‘I don’t know why anyone is bothered, it’s not a big deal’ and that this was active denial because I was homeless and extremely poor and vulnerable. It also meant that I was raped and abused and beaten almost constantly for 4 years until a rape ended in pregnancy and I ended up on the radar of women’s aid.

It’s not uncommon for sex workers to say ‘well I was abused so I might as well give it to them’ I do think there is a problem with dissociation from self with rape.

Not all women suffer from that dissociation. But it is certainly true that I was hit with the full weight once I was physically and psychologically safe. I believe that is how you distinguish between denial and integration which can look the same. If a woman is not physically or psychologically safe, especially if this lack of safety is drawn out over a period of years where more harm is done then I think ‘It’s not a big deal’ is actually an indicator of damage.

Offred · 28/05/2018 09:42

The problem is an age old one. As bewilderness says, the 3rd and 8th rules of misogyny in operation;

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Women must fit their experiences of rape into a framework created by men.

BabyItsAWildWorld · 28/05/2018 09:45

I think she makes an interesting point.

I think we should question some of the narratives around rape, from all angles.

I've never gone along with the all rape is equally abhorrent and traumatic; the level of fear, coersion, violent intent, sense of betrayal etc etc, all make each case unique and the individuals response will therefore be unique.

All cases might be rape but not all rape is the same.

I agree with whoever above said anger is often a better response.

I was raped.
But I wasn't, and I'm not, traumatised at all. I do just think ' you pathetic opportunistic little prick' and I know if he is, there are lots of others too, and that makes me angry.

Offred · 28/05/2018 09:48

I think there needs to be separation of rape as a crime and rape as an experience TBH.

As a crime every rape should be treated as equally criminal, which is why I was pissed a Ken Clarke who was justice secretary making statements re hierarchy.

Rape as an experience is both a shared and an individual experience.

IdentifiedHuman · 28/05/2018 09:54

She's doing a talk about rape this week at the Hay on Wye festival which I'll be going to. It'll be interesting to see what she says without someone editing it.
I don't always agree with her but she's always thought provoking.
If anyone is in the area and interested, I think there are still a few tickets left.
www.hayfestival.com/p-13944-germaine-greer.aspx