Germaine Greer on rape - controversial

[Cwenthryth]

twitter.com/channel4news/status/999946049530859527

Just came across this on Twitter. Only seen the clip so far going to watch the whole thing shortly.... haven’t seen this discussed anywhere else here yet.

I get what she’s saying - don’t let the shitty things that happen to you define you.

But saying “I didn’t want my story to be I was raped, that’s not my story”. But it clearly is a part of your story, Germaine, whether you want it to be or not. You weren’t ‘in the wrong place’ as if lightning struck you, your rape wasn’t an inevitability, it was an act of sexual violence by a man against you that should not have happened.

And whatever someone’s reaction is to shitty things that happen to them - their reaction is their reaction, there isn’t a right and wrong way to react and this clip sounds dangerously close to shaming rape victims if they react in a different way to you. KGM wasn’t helping trying to put the “not that bad” soundbite in her mouth though.

I think that’s an excellent point, offred

I don't think all rape is equally criminal.

Obviously all rape has the same central crime of sex without consent, but I think many factors of the individual crime can then indicate significantly different levels within the criminal act.

I know this is not acceptable view on these boards, but I think it's a better way for women to view rape for the reasons GG is discussing.

I agree with her. I feel society makes out rape victims should be traumatised and reclusive for life. Thats the second act of rape. Secluding its victims and we should encourage them to shake off any stigma.

Thats not saying victims of rape should act the same way. Some of course will take longer to come to terms with it. But no one should be defined by it.

Lots of good points being made here. Agree about anger rather than shame.

"They took away my dignity, my light... Well, hang on a minute, it was a fuck, how could it do all that?"

Seems just a little callous.

Completely agree with offreds last post

How you deal with anything, grief, trauma etc shoukd be completely up to you

But a crime should be treated as such, without degrees of distress

(Plus taking distress into account when sentencing just isnt fair...)

She’s making her point abrasively, but she’s trying to make people see sex as ultimately not very important.

I am more peturbed that she’s dismissive about the violence she underwent during the rape.

I don’t like the bringing in of victim’s experience to determine whether a crime is really bad or not.

Victim experience may determine whether a report is made but determining the level of criminality? I think that simply serves to completely undermine the conceptualisation of rape as a crime in the first place.

There is no obligation to make a report.

We don’t make value judgements based on victim’s feelings re level of criminality for other crimes. The point of something being a crime is that it is considered harmful to society. The prosecution of a crime is an examination of evidence re the accused’s guilt.

Victim’s experiences have relevance re sentencing and for personal development of the victim only. If we allow the victim’s experience to determine the level of criminality I strongly believe that simply will lead to rape not being seen as a public harm and instead as exclusively a civil harm...

Which as I understand it is pretty close to what Greer was arguing for.

I disagree with that TBH.

There are huge problems in how we think about rape, how we talk about rape, how we prosecute rape, how we respond to people who have been raped...

I simply do not agree that this undermines the principle that rape is a crime (a public harm).

I agree with her.

For some of us its just an unwanted person's appendage in our vagina.
Its not permanent. We get over it, no damage done.

Misogynistic rhetoric wants rape to be worse than it often is.

And yes I agree that distress re sentencing was a mistake but it’s what we have.

From the OP: “And whatever someone’s reaction is to shitty things that happen to them - their reaction is their reaction, there isn’t a right and wrong way to react.”

And yet there you are OP, doing exactly this to her.

It would be much better re supporting women to be witnesses if we were clear re what a criminal court is than this move to try and centre victims’ feelings. Of course there are other problems re criminal prosecutions of rape and victims too but I’m not touching on them in this point.

Victims and their feelings should not be given a huge amount of weight in an actual criminal case if the criminal courts are going to try cases effectively. Victims should be prepared for this to be the case.

I agree with her, I also think if we treat it as a fate worse than death, it makes it harder to convict or accept that 'normal people' may do it

The narrative of what victimhood means for a woman who has been raped actually results in those victims who are most likely to be able cope with a criminal case both self exclude and are also excluded by the system from the initial report all the way through to jury decisions IMO.

The system means that the most vulnerable groups, the women who are suffering, are the ones who are selected for hearing and then they are given unrealistic expectations re the court process and retraumatised by the experience because they are seen not to be credible witnesses.

If only the court system was able to actually cope with the group of women who feel ‘it’s not that bad’ and understand that it is a crime whether the woman feels bad about it or not!

I think it’s quite misogynistic to place rape as the most traumatic thing that can happen to a woman.

That’s not my experience.

I heard GG speak at a radfem event a few years ago.

From what I remember she had a similar sentiment then- I’m paraphrasing but it was along the lines of women fear physical violence ‘more’ and rape can happen in an attempt to prevent other physical injury or being murdered. I don’t think she said this directly but I got the insinuation that women fear physical assault/ injury more than rape. (My memory is a bit fuzzy though)

Er, no I wasn’t. I was critiquing how she was (portrayed as) publicly judging others reactions. No one wants their story to include ‘I was raped’ but for some of us it does and we can’t change that by pretending it’s not part of our story.

Still thinking about this after having watched the entire interview. I am uncomfortable about rape being referred to as ‘just a fuck’, it feels like it’s conflating rape with regretted consensual sex. As a sound bite it is trivialising. And that’s how it’s been used, I guess.

But anyway, as others have said, this is Greer being Greer, making very valid points in an intellectual and brusque way which is then easily manipulated and edited to appear more controversial and offensive than they were in the first place. Because “old woman says offensive things” is a story that gets clicks.

I encourage everyone to watch the interview in full, I’ll link again.

IdentifiedHuman I’d love to hear how the talk goes! I saw her speak on women and environmentalism last year. She is a fascinating speaker.

Well yes, the good think about Greer is that she says things in such a way that it forces you to think.

Even re ‘why? It’s just a fuck’ that’s so confrontational and so far away from the standard narrative that you have to think about it more.

In reality it’s not intended to redefine everybody’s experience, it’s a statement about her feelings. It’s said to push you to think about it.

The ‘why?’ Is the most important part IMO...

Recently a disgruntled ex of mine sent out a very nasty message to some young family members (calling me a whore etc)
He's stalking me tbh and evidently means me harm but that's another thread (or not)

But I was struck by his remarks about my own rape. Apparently he does not believe I was raped at all because my behaviour (more than 20 years later) does not reflect hls narrative of permanent trauma about relationships and having sex.

It's as if I am responding "incorrectly" as a mere woman to something a man did to me. How dare I get over it?

I'm evidently supposed to be ruined for life, unable to go near a man again, let alone have and enjoy sex. Because a man raped me and I'm supposed to let that define me forever.

The ignorance is breathtaking.

It’s not ignorance it’s admission. That narrative re women’s experiences and reactions to rape is a manifesto re what abusive men are trying to achieve when they rape.

I don’t think it would be wise for feminism to head into the territory of rape not being a problem though.

I really very strongly think the problem is that ‘being terribly affected’ is the aim and it is the mandated reaction. Women’s actual experiences and reactions vary, some are inarguably traumatised and others are not. We have the right to both reactions.

Offred I think you're right. He certainly is abusive and extremely misogynist. Even the women in his own family (mother/sister) are not spared his invective.

I know what GG is talking about. I've been raped twice. Neither event was anything like as traumatic as numerous other events in my life. I've often been annoyed when you get people on TV talking as if rape automatically wrecks your life.

I'm sure some rapes are very traumatic, particularly if accompanied with extreme violence and a fear for your life. I know getting seriously beaten up with numerous punches to my face - broken nose, stitches in my face - was way more distressing than being pinned face down by a lout who just thrust a few times and let me leave.

I think it's partly to do with the fact that both GG and I seem to have had a lot of partners. If you've slept with dozens of men and had a lot of casual fun, then one bad experience doesn't affect your views of either sex or men so much. Also we're both older. I've had some truly terrible experiences in my 50+ years. The rapes aren't even on that list. But I'm fully aware that some men are total creeps.

I cannot engage too much with this topic as I am one of those who is traumatised from rape and abuse. I agree that reactions are individual. But I think it gets into the territory of having to justify why one is traumatised and of categorising some rape as worse than others.

One of the outcomes of assuming everyone who is raped is in some way affected is that everyone is then (theoretically at least) entitled to the same level of support and understanding as well as the same level of justice.

If we start laying out a path of not being affected, or some rape is not as bad (how do we know?), this may indeed be valid for some, but it also risks not being affected becoming the default position - and then why provide comprehensive resources for support or comprehensive justice for rape (which already has a low conviction rate and women are already not believed)? If we chip away by setting a bar for what is or is not traumatic, I don’t think that is helpful, plus you are somehow worse for being affected (if that makes sense) and needing that support, and feel you have to justify that too.

Really, the focus should be on the perpetrators and not women’s reactions. It’s not my job to manage (or justify) my reaction, it should have been the perpetrators’ responsibility not to breach my consent.

I agree the effects of rape are very dependent on the woman’s social conditions.

My ex is currently on police bail. I wanted to make a complaint re coercive control but the police want to focus on the ‘more serious crime’ of rape, which I understand. The coercive control and the false imprisonment parts are the things which affected me much more.

I also believe that my experience is not the determinant of how serious a crime is. The determinant is ‘public harm’. I would argue that coercive control should be seen as more serious than it is because of the public harm but not as serious as rape.

This experience and my feelings on it are very different to the past experiences and they have all been different to each other too. Much depends on the features of the actual crime and also the context of woman’s life when the rape happens IMO.

But IMO it is always a serious crime because it’s about public harm not individual experiences.