Germaine Greer on rape - controversial

[Cwenthryth]

twitter.com/channel4news/status/999946049530859527

Just came across this on Twitter. Only seen the clip so far going to watch the whole thing shortly.... haven’t seen this discussed anywhere else here yet.

I get what she’s saying - don’t let the shitty things that happen to you define you.

But saying “I didn’t want my story to be I was raped, that’s not my story”. But it clearly is a part of your story, Germaine, whether you want it to be or not. You weren’t ‘in the wrong place’ as if lightning struck you, your rape wasn’t an inevitability, it was an act of sexual violence by a man against you that should not have happened.

And whatever someone’s reaction is to shitty things that happen to them - their reaction is their reaction, there isn’t a right and wrong way to react and this clip sounds dangerously close to shaming rape victims if they react in a different way to you. KGM wasn’t helping trying to put the “not that bad” soundbite in her mouth though.

I think, in short, my contribution is shame for making it about how women react and the relative circumstances of their lives, when it should be condemnation of men who cannot keep their dick to themselves. For shame

Yy katara, this is why I would like separation between crime and experiences.

Rape always is and should always be considered a serious crime. Experiences are variable and it makes sense to have holistic support available for those who do find it deeply traumatic and life changing.

This is entirely from memory, but in one of her books GG makes the point that we see rape as a special category, different from other kinds of assault. And because of that special category, women feel shame about rape, when they should be angry.

She was arguing that if we saw rape as just another form of physical assault, the impacts might be less traumatic.

That shame and sense of invasion is why rape is such a powerful weapon for men. GG suggests that by changing the narrative we might be able to diffuse some of power rape has over women's psyche.

I don't know that she's right, but I've always remembered her argument and thought it was interesting.

We don’t have the same difficulty with assaults TBH which is telling. Some people aren’t really affected by being punched and others are very traumatised and there is room for both reactions to exist without it affecting whether we think punching someone is a crime.

That context re these discussions is not GG’s fault. You might argue she has a responsibility to be considerate re that context, but I don’t think anyone expects that from GG and I don’t think that’s what she’s for.

I don’t think it would be wise for feminism to head into the territory of rape not being a problem though.
I think this is my concern - not that GG was saying that - but that this is how it is very easily spun.

I really very strongly think the problem is that ‘being terribly affected’ is the aim and it is the mandated reaction
Just to clarify, do you mean it’s the aim of the rapist? Therefore by extension the expectation of a rape culture accepting society?

When I was raped at 17 I thought about reporting it, as he had a penknife and I was sure he'd carried out the ruse that trapped me before - and would again. But I was in Paris and my French wasn't up to dealing with police in a foreign country. Plus I was due to leave in a week and I dreaded the fuss my parents would make. It affected me for months. I knew it was a serious crime but it's also a crime that's very difficult to prove.

I was raped more than 30 years ago, when attitudes towards rape victims were far worse than they are today. Reporting rape was very daunting, even now. The second time I did actually tell the man that what he was doing was rape. While he was raping me. Which I suspect ruined it for him.

Yes, exactly that. Aim of the rapist, expectation of the rape culture.

I feel I’m a bit against the grain here but I find the specific statement of “it was a fuck.....” really horrible. I don’t think that’s positive or empowering and it made me feel demeaned and even patronised for the feeling the way I do about my own experiences.

I also feel like it’s something for men who already feel a certain way about women to latch onto - that we don’t even mind it really.

I agree with the poster who says that rape is something we should be really angry about but not something that has to destroy us. That is a good empowering sentiment that in my view isn’t so offensive to women who do suffer trauma from being attacked.

I obviously don’t know GG but I know a few women that I perceive to be like her - and while I can admire them I also feel like they are slightly condescending, that’s not the right word... but they have a certain view of how women should be and they can be a bit scathing of women who perhaps don’t live up to that view. It’s sad because I actually take that as just another way to shut women down. And yes, that attitude does perpetuate the, “well she’s not that upset..” mindset - which is so insidious on so many levels, because once again it places the responsibility of the rape on the woman. She’s not that upset so therefore the man shouldn’t be/isn’t seen as culpable for his own actions.

So yes, I do think we need to talk about the experiences of rape that are ‘It’s just a fuck’ but we must not allow that to override the experiences that are ‘deeply traumatising’ or ‘lifelong effects’. The problem is women never own the narrative re rape.

Actually understanding why for some women ‘it’s just a fuck’ whether this was always the case or something they came to, whether it’s denial or integration and why for other women it is ‘deeply traumatising’ and has ‘lifelong effects’, how that trauma manifests, what caused it, how it has lifelong effects... all those things are important re how we respond to rape.

As long as there is a narrative which demands a certain type of response we can’t actually do this work.

I'll be careful how I put this but the DD of a woman I met was very violently raped by a stranger. She was a 14 yo with no previous sexual experience. She apparently told herself - during the attack - that this wasn't sex, it was rape, and she set herself to memorize every detail of her assailant, while being totally compliant in the hope she'd survive.

The police said her evidence had been extremely valuable. The man went down for a long time. I was - and am - in awe of a child who could remain so cool headed in such circumstances.

But I'm sure her reaction was extremely unusual. Being scarred for life would be more common, I'd guess.

I think I feel the way I do about my rapes because I never blamed myself or felt shame. I was angry and I blamed the men. However, although I wasn't ashamed, I am still very careful about who I tell because some people react in unhelpful ways.

We absolutely can't police each other's reactions to our own and others rapes. Yet I do find the 'just a fuck' phrase angers me. Fucking is consensual, rape isn't.
When I was 17 I was raped. I wasn't traumatised forever afterwards, though I didn't tell anyone for several years for reasons of shame, rather I chalked it up to experience and was far more wary round men.

What I have been really traumatised by, is discovering last year, that both my grown up daughters have been raped too.

The 23 year old disclosed that she'd been raped whilst travelling round Europe when she was 19. She didn't report it, she just got the hell away from the campsite where it happened and didn't tell me for fear of worrying me.

In the course of that disclosure, her younger sister told us that her first sexual encounter at 16 had been rape. She didn't tell me either, she said because she was sure I'd make her go to the Police (I would have) and she decided that as the boy who raped her was the golden boy at her school, she'd have become a social pariah and her sixth form years would have been ruined.
I totally empathised with that as it was very similar to my experience which I had shared with both of them when they were a bit younger.

She talked of having processed it all, worked through her hurt and anger, and she assures me she's OK with it. I have asked them both if they want to speak to councillors but they say they've dealt with it.
I am in awe of both of them and how they've not been defined by the experience and at the same time I understand you can process and move on.

I have cried many tears over it though. I just wish they hadn't had that experience.
Also knowing they felt it better not to tell me makes me achingly sad and sometimes like I've failed ... But then it's not about me, its about what they wanted.

Most of all its just made me even more fucking furious with men. I absolutely hate them.

@BlytheByName I am so sorry to hear of your experience and that of your daughters.

"Also knowing they felt it better not to tell me makes me achingly sad and sometimes like I've failed ... But then it's not about me, its about what they wanted."

I do not think you have failed at all.I expect their love for you made them want to keep you from something that would hurt you. That is all.

Thank you Italiangreyhound.
The only downside to being a parent, I think, is not being able to protect them from the real world.

Yes, that was exactly it with my friend’s DD. She did tell and I helped her report because her mum was too much of a mess.

She chose me to be the responsible adult re the interview because she loved her mum and didn’t want to put her through the interview.

It was a very sensible and mature decision IMO from outside the family.

I know but you are a beloved parent and you are right our anger should be directed at those who perpetrate the crime and apologists etc.

One of the things that struck me about a woman who was kidnapped, was when she was released, her mum said 'Oh you weren't raped were you!' So she pretended she had not been and I think it was not until her mother died that she felt able to say what had really happened.

To me bring able to describe and frame an experience is vital. nd that self framing should not determine how others view or describe their own experiences.

But as Ofred says, the legal side is different. A crime is a crime.

I'be not watched the interview, I may do. I have to whisper I don't much Iike Germaine Greer !

It reminded me of Alice Sebold's book Lucky. Certainly thought provoking.

Whenever I hear Greer I prickle initially but then think about what she’s said. She’s very confrontational. In the circumstances I conclude overrall that is not a bad thing. Reluctant affection I have for her and respect.

Blythe - my friend has found that aspect so hard but in reality you cannot protect them from the world. Nor would you want to if you think about it. Successfully protecting them from everything bad would mean depriving them of everything good.

It is really sad, worse than that but I can’t even find the words, how awful it is that so so often women feel intense shame about rape to the point where they’d rather not tell a soul rather than risk hurting someone or being blamed or stigmatised. What other crime would make victims so ashamed or otherwise feel they couldn’t bring themselves to report it? It’s fucking terrible.

Of course you're right Offred, parenting is about constantly exposing them to things and not protecting them but giving them the tools to deal with life.
I'm extremely proud of how they've dealt with what happened. And now its come out they've become very close which is lovely to see.

I'm very glad you were able to support your friends daughter, and I hope she's recovering now.

Just to add, both my daughters are now enrolling in self defence classes now, and they are much less affable with strangers, they're vocal with creepy guys in bars for example and they call out behaviour they don't like. This is a positive by product.

I’ve not read all the replies..although I will. I watched the link and as usual was wowed by GG.
I don’t always agree with what she says, but by god, she makes me challenge my thinking.
I’m so grateful to her thank you for having the strength to speak on our behalf.

She is doing really well Blythe but her mum not so much. It’s a very, very hard thing for a mum to deal with.

Blythe seeing your parents hurt can be worse than the ordeal it self. They love you and that's precisely why the put off telling you.

I think for me VAW is actually a men's problem, I'm so over nitpicking woman's reactions and feelings. We didn't do the crime so we shouldn't do the time. There is no "correct" way to react as a victim, the only person in the wrong is the perp.

Twice this week in the night a woman has come to MN to say that her husband has done something terrible and she doesn't know what to do.
She can't bring herself to call it rape but that is what it was and that is what we named it. She would leave right out the door right that minute because she can never trust him again but she has children asleep in the other room and she knows he will act like nothing happened in the morning because it is just a fuck.

Those are the men who have the backs of rapists everywhere. And there are many many men whose wives and GF wake up to being raped by the man they love who they thought loved them.