Is this really a feminist board?

[GaspingShark]

I am a crap feminist. I haven't read a single book on the subject. Not De Beauvoir, not Greer, not Butler. The reasons for that are to do with a disability that I'd rather not go into, but I am a woman with a brain, and the Republic of Ireland is having a referendum on repealing the 8th this week. There it is, look, thirty threads down. And this "Feminism and Women's Rights" board's primary concern seems to be "What it will really take the peak trans the world?"

So I'm asking you, because I genuinely, honestly, cross my heart and hope to die, believe you are all better read and/or have more experience and/or more knowledge of being a woman than I do.

Doesn't that bother you? Doesn't it bother you that, four days away from the repeal vote, there's one thread on that in the bottom third of a fifty-thread page, and two or three dozen trans-related threads covering everything from Amnesty International to Jordan Peterson to exactly what Munroe Bergdorf told Venice Allan? Does it give you any pause for thought?

You wouldnt mind but the poster in question just called someone a TERF

And knows damn well its a slur

Short memory

ihave been bombarded with hate

No, you haven’t. People have robustly disagreed with you.

Look. The job of the people around you isn’t to blindly validate your world view. Students are coming out of university having had this #nodebate shit and safe spaces and all that crap and they’ve lost the ability to engage with viewpoints they oppose without getting upset nowvthey cant argue, so they just use the technique of shouting people down, victim tears and callingvopponents bigoted.

Do you have friends who vote for conservatives if you’re a labour voter?
Do you have friends who voted opposite to you in the brexit vote?
Do you have friends who live very different lives to you? Economically, in terms of religion and culture?

If not, why not? Do you ever sit down with someone who disagrees with you and have a jolly good argument about brexit? Listen to them? Or a good argument about religion, or politics? A real argument, from someone on the other side of the fence? And then at the end of it say Ok, another cuppa? That was fun. And still be friends.

Do you read media and papers that don’t align with your views?

If you don’t - think about what you’re missing. You’re missing a challenge to your viewpoint. You’re missing the change to sharpen your debating claws. And you’re missing a chance to listen to other people outside your bubble. Because you might be wrong. And if you only ever listen to people telling you how right you are you will never have a chance of realising it.

I voted remain. A LOT of people I know voted leave. Oh we had some colossal arguments. And you know, some of their points were valid - namely that the European thing hasn’t benefitted areas like page hall in Sheffield very much, and that the middle classes have benefitted disproportionately. And some of my points were valid. And some well they’re a matter of opinion. But the doscussion was robust, and worth it.

It’s so important to not live in a bubble. All these people on Twitter, all these people saying you just need to stop talking about this Or telling you that anyone who doesn’t validate you hates you - they are the dangerous ones.

Keep talking. Keep debating. If it’s robust, that’s ok. Nothing you can say to me via the little bits of text on this screen can hurt me. Say what you want. We obviously don’t make threats, or incite violence because that’s a real world crime, and a shit thing to do. But talking, even having a bit of a go at each other, isn’t hatred.

Hatred is lynching. It’s leaving pigs heads outside mosques. It’s those godawful ‘punish a muslim’ letters. Its swastikas sprayed on your door. It’s being spat at. It’s madked men barring the way. It’s not someone on here telling you you’re wrong.

Flameproof pants on and jump in. Debate. It’s good for you

Damn - this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3253884-girlguiding-an-update has in the OP, a report from a meeting with the CEO of GG, which refutes your claims.

The transwoman in the women's prison, who is reportedly sharing showers with women - looked like this when admitted to prison.Pre-op, male bodied, male looking prisoners have no place in women's jails.

TBH abortion rights won't be worth shit if being a woman has been co-opted into meaning anyone who says "I am a woman" and no-one is allowed to discuss reproductive issues without concerns of triggering and bigotry

ErrolTheDragon Of course there are issues that need to be discussed. But they won't be discussed by hurling abuse to shout down evidence, or by outlawing the words that are required for the discussion.
I wish someone would get that across to the #nodebate folks, the people who run block lists, the people campaigning to shut down discussion on MN (who seem to use some pretty underhand tactics).
When the abuse and lies stop, there will be no need for terfblockers.
And as for discussion on MN, I'm afraid I've seen precious little of it. Whenever anyone says anything that doesn't toe the antitrans line, they are the target of abuse and pile-ons. But I live in hope.

Bowlofbabelfish
They are, unfortunately going to have far reaching effects. There will be multiple knock on effects, most of them unintended consequences, which significantly affect the safety of women and children.
You keep saying this, but endless repetition doesn't make it true.

Transpeople exist and they should have the same rights as anyone else to exist safely and peacefully in society.
Thank you for acknowledging my right to exist. Now how about those who are following me? the ones still in the endless queue for a first appointment at a gender clinic; those waiting for HRT; those who can't have surgery for some reason; those whose surgery went wrong; those who are still trying desperately to "be men" for the sake of their families; those whose GP's are refusing to refer them; or those who are like rabbits in the headlights -- desperately miserable as "men", but too terrified of the hatred they see and hear of every day to take that first step through the GP's door.

TERFragetteCity
Whatever the proposed changes the GRA might be (and none of us know that, yet) they are extremely unlikely to make any difference whatsoever to anyone other than trans people applying for GRCs.
So why bother your brain with the women? Surely if it makes literally no difference to anything then there is no discussion to be had?
Partly because it upsets me to see so many nice people being scared by the propaganda.
And partly because the motives of those pushing the anti-trans agenda go far, far beyond blocking the changes to the GRA. That for instance is why we saw a campaign on MN to disrupt the recent NHS research -- a deliberate effort to make access to gender services even worse than it already is.
You mean by calling us Nazis and outlawing the word 'woman'? - oh hang on - I thought it made no difference so there IS no discussion?
I have certainly never called you (or anyone else on MN) a Nazi. Nor, so far as I know, are there any plans to outlaw the word "woman".

thebewilderness
I suggest you request copies of your deleted posts from MNHQ.
No evidence, then!
I know exactly what I said. And I did not call anyone Nazis, nor did I call anyone on MN "alt-right".
Still, if you are absolutely sure you are right, perhaps you could ask MNHQ to reinstate it!

Rufustheyawningreindeer
^You wouldnt mind but the poster in question just called someone a TERF
And knows damn well its a slur^
Funny how many people on this board have "TERF" as part of their username. Anyone would think they were proud of it — so hardly "a slur".

And anyway, do you regard "radical feminist"as a slur? No reason why you should. I may not agree with you, but disagreeing is not a slur. And as you seem think it's OK to exclude transwomen, presumably you're OK with Trans Exclusionary. So if you belong both groups, what's wrong with the term (devised by feminists, incidentally) that combines the two?

If you honestly believe that what you say is right, then I would have thought you would be proud to be recognised for your belief. So why aren't you?

On and on and on and on they go. So dull.

Still waiting for a positive contribution to this board on a feminist topic of your choosing. It'll be a long wait I suspect.

Bowlofbabelfish
ihave been bombarded with hate
No, you haven’t. People have robustly disagreed with you.
No, people have gone way beyond "disagreeing with me". And very few (if any) have actually bothered to have a discussion (or even an argument). They have simply repeated the same old very boring, very misleading propaganda. It's not a debate: it's just trying to batter me down.

Nothing you can say to me via the little bits of text on this screen can hurt me.
Good for you and your cis-privilege. But to a trans person who is just emerging into the world, because transition seems a better bet than suicide, "just words" could be very damaging. Look up the reports of the coroner in the Lucy Meadows case.

We obviously don’t make threats, or incite violence because that’s a real world crime, and a shit thing to do. Not on MN, maybe. But maybe you should tell that to the little gang that attacked a transwoman in Hyde Park. One of them was so proud of what she had done that she even boasted about it in court! Or the prominent transphobes who were recently questioned under caution in respect of hate crimes.
Hatred is lynching.
Like what happened to a friend of mine who was left unconscious in the street?

Now how about those who are following me? the ones still in the endless queue for a first appointment at a gender clinic; those waiting for HRT; those who can't have surgery for some reason;

If self ID goes through and particularly if the changes to GRA go through, those people will be harmed as well.

The TRA lobby wants to remove the requirement for a gender dysphroria diagnosis. What they want is de medicalisation Of transgender status - and when that happens then there will be no need to fund gender clinics. Provision won’t expand, it’ll contract.
This is another reason I oppose self ID and the changes to the GRA. Because it will reduce treatment access for people with genuine gender dysphoria. GD is a real condition and adults suffering from it should be able to access treatment. Those adults ironically are the ‘old school transsexual ‘ types who generally were accepted into spaces but are now lumped in with the AGP crowd thanks to the TRA lobby.

And I know this is a bit whatabouty, and two wrongs don’t make a right, so forgive me for that, but it’s always striking me when treatment access is demanded...
... massive wait times for female complaints are so common it’d be a joke (if it wasnt a tragedy.) 8 years I think on average to be even diagnosed with endometriosis. Women suffer for years with fibroids, anaemia, thyroid issues, painful periods, pcos. It strikes me as interesting that men expect quick treatment for everything - and generally get it.

But maybe you should tell that to the little gang that attacked a transwoman in Hyde Park.

I think you meant to say, the male thugs who beat a woman in Hyde Park. For which one was convicted. DARVO. We see you.

And I see it did not take long for the thread to take on male pattern posting. Funny that.

But maybe you should tell that to the little gang that attacked a transwoman in Hyde Park.

But that isn’t what happened. The court records clearly show that a woman was attacked by a group of men.

It’s not feminists doing the attacking and beating. Step out of your bubble and read the impartial reporting.

8 years I think on average to be even diagnosed with endometriosis. Women suffer for years with fibroids, anaemia, thyroid issues, painful periods, pcos. It strikes me as interesting that men expect quick treatment for everything - and generally get it.

Isn't it. It's not whataboutery. This thread was allegedly supposed to be about female reproductive issues. Not trans stuff. The OP thinks there is too much trans stuff. That's the whataboutery here.

But to a trans person who is just emerging into the world, because transition seems a better bet than suicide,

Ah ah... come now. Threats of suicide are a means of control. Do as I want, validate me or I’ll kill myself. Hysterical, abusive, cowardly. The stats on trans suicide have been debunked.

Countless women in this board have experienced this tactic from abusive males. Someone’s mother in law has just done it on AIBU and you can see the response there - it’s not positive let’s put it that way.

Also cis privilege

Am I an isomer, or a genetic control element in proximity to the gene I control? No? Then the phrase is nonsense. And grossly offensive. There’s no such thing as a cis woman. I’m a woman. Would you refer to a black women as ‘not white?’ If you did you’d be framing her as the lack of something, as a non-entity as a default. And she’d be quite within her rights to express her displeasure.

It’s woman. There’s no such thing as a cis woman.

ToeToToe
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3253884-girlguiding-an-update has in the OP, a report from a meeting with the CEO of GG, which refutes your claims.
It's a report written by someone who went into the meetingwithan agenda, and didn't get what they wanted out of it.

Now let's see what the guidance really says:-
Sharing accommodation - young trans members should be able to share accommodation with other young members if they wish. Some trans people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. This should be done discreetly, in conversation with the young person and, if appropriate, their parent or carer. The option of having an alternative accommodation arrangement is open to any young person if it is requested.
Using facilities - the use of gendered facilities, such as toilets and showers, can be a cause of anxiety in trans young people. Members are entitled to use the facilities of the gender that they self-identify as. And where possible more private, individual or mixed gender facilities should be made available or offered to all young members – including trans members – should they wish or request them. This will ensure that trans young people do not avoid using the bathroom or feel singled out in any way.
Privacy when changing - a young person may wish to have more privacy when changing at a residential event and for activities too. Alternative, more private areas should be made available to all young members - including trans members - should they wish or request them. This will ensure that trans young people do not feel singled out in any way.

Shock! Horror! Girl Guiding advocates offering privacy to all young members if they request it. Not quite what was suggested in the link you gave, is it? Wonder why you went to the trouble of back tracking than individual MN post when it's so easy to find the official version?

OK, that's it for tonight. I've got to flounce off, now. I have to be at work in just over eight hours time, and I would like something to eat first.

And as you seem think it's OK to exclude transwomen, presumably you're OK with Trans Exclusionary. So if you belong both groups, what's wrong with the term (devised by feminists, incidentally) that combines the two?

You wanna check your facts

Or is that the royal you?

Agreed. So sick of seeing trans threads. There's more to feminism and the abortion laws are FAR more important

If you honestly believe that what you say is right, then I would have thought you would be proud to be recognised for your belief. So why aren't you?

And stop making shit up

Its getting boring

Ah ah... come now. Threats of suicide are a means of control. Do as I want, validate me or I’ll kill myself. Hysterical, abusive, cowardly. The stats on trans suicide have been debunked.

So "hysterical" is ok to use for trans women?

spontaneous

You can admit to what you like

I dont have to admit to something im not...even if certain posters would rather just make up a whole load of bollocks

Rufustheyawningreindeer Exactly. We are all able to define ourselves as we see fit. No-one should do it for us. I won't be defined as cis for example.

lass

I cant see that bowl was on the hysteria thread

When did she say the word shouldnt be used?