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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding - an update

418 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 21:23

Firstly, apologies for being offline for a while. It's been a busy few weeks, I went on holiday and started a new job. But back on it now!

You'll know that an article was published in the Sunday Times in March and a couple of weeks later the open letter went in: the final tally was 927 signatures (some of these collected after publication).

Since then I met the CEO, deputy CEO and chief guide. Prior to that, I was warned in emails to use the internal procedures for complaints and to not make things public (I did, and was ignored). I was also "reminded" of the social media policy and told that the campaign would not change the trans policy.

It's probably not appropriate to share my full notes from that meeting here. But I will say that Girlguiding was defensive and prickly. The fact that I have publicly discussed the trans policy on social media in particular irritated Julie Bentley (CEO). I don't know why; the policy is a public document available on the website.

Girlguiding stressed to me that the legal advice they received confirmed that they HAVE to treat trans members (including those who self identify, not just with a GRC) as the opposite sex) as the gender they identify as.

We did agree that in the absence of a test case, there is no legal precedent. It was left that we would await the updated EHRC guidance expected next month before any review is conducted (if they chose to review it).

We did discuss the inconsistencies that the trans policy brings about, eg GG has strict rules that accompanying male children on leaders must have separate sleeping and washing facilities. Even boys as young as 4. But if that boy identified as a girl, then no such rules apply, despite there being no physical, material difference between the two groups of males. Girlguiding referred back to their legal advice that have to treat trans members as the gender they identify as. This includes males who identify as females providing personal care to girls on residentials, a role which is strictly for female leaders only according to GG's safeguarding policy.

We also discussed gender non confirming girls. There was an agreement that the language in the policy was rather clinical, and it could be interpreted as a strict instruction for a GNC girl to be removed from their unit. It was agreed that the policy language would be reviewed. This is particularly important as most trans issues within GG are, as you might expect, around girls who are transitioning.

One of the key issues for me is that girlguiding now offers single gender but mixed sex accommodation. I accept that the number of trans girls joining guides will be small compared to our overall membership - but it would only take one incident to cause huge harm to the children involved, their families and girlguiding. I suggested that GG might want to make the single gender / mixed sex aspect clearer, perhaps by adapting the standard consent form to advise parents that we don't guarantee single sex accommodation. Yet again, I was accused of wanting "out" individuals. That is not my intention at all.

I've heard nothing from girlguiding since. I will be following up on the action points. We will have a new CEO in June and updated EHRC guidance which will hopefully give all children equal rights to bodily privacy and autonomy, not just the trans kids.

OP posts:
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Baroquehavoc · 20/05/2018 22:20

Would this ever be argued with another PC eg excluding males unless the male has the PC of disability or sexual orientation?

No, it wouldn't. But we're back to the 'transgirl are girls' slogan.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 22:50

I went to a recent Diversity and Inclusion training session where the trainer kept saying gender instead of sex, I kept pulling her up on it and she said it was going to change to gender soon in law but it was controversial, and mumbled a lot looking stressed.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 22:51

By definition, a trans girl has to be male. All Male children are lawfully excluded from GG. So how can it be argued that males with the PC of gender reassignment can be allowed to join, but other males can't?

YY. This is the same argument Jennifer James used against self ID trans identified males on AWS. If they are using the EA exemption to exclude boys they're potentially on dodgy ground.

Maryz · 20/05/2018 23:08

We need a guide leader with a willing 14 year old son to ask for him to be able to camp with the girls.

After all, leaders children can camp with guides if they are girls. If they are boys they need completely separate accommodation (from the age of 4, ffs).

So a willing 14 year old who is prepared to say he's a girl for the weekend could cause a bit of a kerfuffle.

AgnesBadenPowell · 20/05/2018 23:15

We absolutely need to expose the flaws in the system. GG will not listen. But with any sort of direct action we have to be very mindful of the other kids in the unit. I don't want to cause alarm or distress

OP posts:
TheClitterati · 20/05/2018 23:21

Such a shame GG has ruined themselves for girls.

We've recently moved to new town and would love to enrol dds in GG but it won't be happening while all this fuckwittery is playing out.

annandale · 20/05/2018 23:24

I wouldn't play silly games and I wouldn't avoid Guides but I would ask questions.

LaSqrrl · 20/05/2018 23:38

There is some hope though, that the girls themselves may stand together and object.

In this US case, this trans' use of the girls' changing room, caused 200 girls to stage a protest. The 'transgirl' in question, did a number of TV interviews with a significant bulge in the skirt area. Just like every other girl, right?

PerspicaciaTick · 20/05/2018 23:49

The Senior Section may have the ability to organise and object, but I don't think the younger ones are going to be in any position to come together and protest.

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 21/05/2018 00:22

@AgnesBadenPowell would it be possible for Guiders to launch a "100 years" (of women getting the vote) campaign? Or some other hook? What I am getting at is: start a Guiding grassroots celebration of single sex brilliance, which will force the leadership to state that they don't support it?

I am speaking very much from the outside here, I was a Brownie and a Guide as a child but that was a while ago, and my closest link now is nieces that left Guiding a few years ago.

But you see what I mean? A mass celebration designed By Guides For Guides (but which the new CEO has to stamp on because the previous one would have?)

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 21/05/2018 00:24

To at least force the issue out into the open, I mean.

Starkstaring · 21/05/2018 07:19

There's another side to this.

Say there is a 14 year old biological female who identifies as male. No place now in Girl Guides, but the Scouts are fine cos they have both sexes. The trans boy is happy being treated as a boy in the scouts.

Then they go on camp. The trans boy is housed with all the biological boys.

UpstartCrow · 21/05/2018 07:56

@Starkstaring No, the Scouts manage things differently. They dont have mixed sex sleeping.

hackmum · 21/05/2018 08:00

UpstartCrow - so the trans boy would share a tent with the girls? Or do they have some other arrangement in place?

Stark raises an important point, though. For a while I've been thinking that in schools, the really vulnerable child is going to be the trans boy who, given a choice of where to get changed for PE, chooses the boys' changing rooms because they don't understand the potential risks.

Juells · 21/05/2018 08:07

@LaSqrrl

There is some hope though, that the girls themselves may stand together and object.

In this US case, this trans' use of the girls' changing room, caused 200 girls to stage a protest.

From what I saw online, the girls who protested were 'shown up' as bigots and terfs and transphobes, and the trans girl came out of the debacle as a hero.

Also IIRC, in a previous thread a post was deleted for mentioning bulges in connection with a video of the incident.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 08:16

Have the insurers been made aware of this?

InflagranteDelicto · 21/05/2018 08:19

So I've run thinking about this. Really sad to see so many people saying they're refusing to consider GG for their daughters. Maybe we need to tackle this another way. Maybe instead of avoiding (and leaving a vacum for TIMs) we need to get involved. I run a unit. Running the unit, I have a say in which leaders I have. Personality clash (or bloke saying he's a woman), then I politely suggest my unit is not the one for them. Not because they're trans, but because we don't click, and to do this, as a leader, you have to click with your leadership team. We all know that. Likewise with kids. If we're expected to manage out girls who want to trans, whose to say we can't manage our intake accordingly?

This follows from a conversation with dh about a young person we know of who cannot find a guide unit to take them because they are questioning their gender. I looked at dh and said I'd take her, and he said what about if she came in boys clothing? Laughed my socks off, because I was in jeans, t-shirt and his sweater. Clothes don't make a person. If I'm saying that a girl is genetics, not gender, then I live and stand by that.

So please, don't walk away from a once great, currently confused organisation. The only way we can make GG great again, and keep a space for girls, is by people like you getting involved. Making your voice heard, and making a difference to young girls lives.

drspouse · 21/05/2018 08:20

The Scouts might put a girl who identifies as a boy in with the boys, but only after consultation.
To all those saying "I'm not sending my daughters to Guides"
PLEASE tell your local units this and WHY. Ask for your enquiry to be escalated to District and Division and County. Tell them GG are breaching the Equalities Act and that they won't listen to leaders who complain.
The vast majority of leaders and parents have no idea this is going on. GG is refusing to tell them.

Ifonlyus · 21/05/2018 08:33

inflagrante You've really experienced s female being excluded from other Guide groups for questioning their gender? I'm not doubting you, just saddened by that. Do Guiding UK think all the barriers that young person faces because of their female biology magically melt away whilst they're being confused about their gender?!

Guiding should be the place where no expectations are placed on a female child to act a certain way.

cordeliaflynne · 21/05/2018 08:45

I am not a lawyer and find all the discussion of what is and isn't allowed in the equalities act and how it relates to the GRA act etc. confusing and hard to follow. My understanding was that GG was single sex which it can be because of the exemptions in the equalities act but then changed to saying they are single gender where gender is not a protected characteristic so how can they do that? And now they just say they are girl only which in the current climate sounds very wishy washy and is crying out for a definitive definition of what is a girl. But if that definition does not match with a protected characteristic then how can they justify excluding some young people and not others?

If the characteristic is not sex (genes, genitals biology etc) then are we ending up in a place where their will have be a legal definition of girl based on clothes, colour preferences, mannerisms and all that rubbish? That is completely bonkers. I just can't get my head around how any of this can work and it is so totally at odds with what I understood where the core values of GG.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 08:55

But if that definition does not match with a protected characteristic then how can they justify excluding some young people and not others?

YY. They will be excluding some people with the protected sex characteristic of female ("trans boys") and including some people with the protected sex characteristic of male.

KittiesInsane · 21/05/2018 08:58

The transboys ( plural) in our local school change separately from both the boys and the girls. Transgender children are permitted to choose where they change, it’s the other children who aren’t, but dd hasn’t heard of any who have yet chosen to dive in there with the boys, for good reason.

I imagine that many transitioning young girls understand the risk rather too well.

InflagranteDelicto · 21/05/2018 09:02

Yes, indirectly. A joint guiding/ scouting thing. 6mth run up, practice night my Brownie night, so only dh (scouter) Dd1 (guide) and Dd2 (Brownie & cub) took an active part. I helped out during the actual event. There were two girls who were questioning their gender identity, one already in scouting, the younger one a guide, but between units because she'd been managed out of hers and couldn't find one to go to. Technically she shouldn't have been able to participate, but her parents were part of the organising team.

She says obviously at a point of vulnerability, very emotionally wobbly, and this made her unreliable, which impacted Dd1, and others who were supposed to work with her at various points of the programme. I get the feeling that trans want what she needed, but she couldn't articulate what she did need. Poor girl.

Like I said, if I ran guides nearer her home area (Brownie leader) I'd have her. Because I do believe guiding gives girls a stable base and a voice.

cordeliaflynne · 21/05/2018 09:12

It sounds to me like adolescent trans boys are exactly the girls that need Guiding and they are the group that will be asked to leave. Heart breaking.

drspouse · 21/05/2018 09:13

Inflagrante could you support the girl as a Lone Guide for the moment maybe? Invite her to District events?

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