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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Legal self-id - what are the problems?

270 replies

SarahAr · 17/05/2018 20:50

Legal self-id - what are the problems?

Assuming that the government goes ahead with legal self-id in-line with its announcement that it only intends to change the Gender Recognition Act to simplify the process and demedicalise it, but it does not intend to change the Equality Act.

And also assuming the legislation is no more permissive than the legislation in Ireland, which requires a statutory declaration stating that the individual intends to live as a women for the rest of her life. This is a safe assumption given the far right government in power today.

What are the problems with legal self-id? More specifically how does it help predators to prey on women and how does it impact women's rights?

This is not intended as a goady post - I genuinely cannot see the problems.

OP posts:
HerFemaleness · 18/05/2018 20:13

If we're speaking about society at present, I think it's a self-evident fact that the lives lived of men and women are fairly distinguishable on a number of counts, due in no small parts to gender stereotypes and the patriarchy.

Interesting. When a man self-IDs as a woman can you not see how it would be a little insulting women that he embraces and identifies with the stereotypes and patriarchal oppression we have had forced on us since birth, and not just that but declares them innate immutable characteristics embedded in his psyche and therefore ours too?

HerFemaleness · 18/05/2018 20:13

there should be a 'to' between insulting and women.

Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 20:13

If a form does not specify legal gender, then you are free to use which ever definition of gender you like. That is not lying. Personally I have never seen a form that specifies state your legal gender.

We're talking about sex. The importance of completing forms with the correct sex for planning services, knowledge about medicine etc.

It is lying. And as I said you're just making a case that this shitty law should be tightened up, not loosened,

RatRolyPoly · 18/05/2018 20:14

Kinky cross dressers are trans people. Stonewall says so.

That umbrella is unhelpful and I think it needs to be changed, but I can see why they've done it. I think they didn't want to exclude anyone who might consider themselves trans, rather than seeking to impose trans on those for whom it is not appropriate.

So yeah, Stonewall's "trans" is not my (or 99.99999% of people's) trans. I'm going with "bodily sex not in line with their gender identity" - so the common sense understating of the term.

Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 20:15

Things are a little bit more complicated than that. The estate in which a trans prisoner is held is determined by Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service (HMPPS) guidelines. These already allow someone who is legally female to be held in the male estate.

We've had a nice little discussion about this on another thread. Again, you're omitting important information.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/05/2018 20:16

Things are a little bit more complicated than that.

That’s the situation now. If self ID goes through they will have an automatic right to be housed in female estate. There will be no more case by case discretion.

In Ireland, prisoners are housed in the estate of their birth sex. This should happen here.

Do you have a problem with male bodied, violent sex offenders being held with vulnerable women? I do. Communal showers, confined spaces. I can’t imagine the stress, lack of dignity and danger. It’s unacceptable to me that some of the most vulnerable women in society are being housed with Male bodied offenders - half of whom are cat A/sex offenders.

Do you think this is OK?

RatRolyPoly · 18/05/2018 20:24

The AGP wives seem to have a common experience of being expected to live with it, encourage it and be used as props in it.

So a thread for people with a common experience means everybody in that situation will have that same experience?

Are you sure it couldn't be that those for whom that does not reflect their experience simply do not post on that thread?

Can't see anyone dropping by to say "my husband is now a woman. It's been fine actually, really easy. Not to gloat or anything...".

When a man self-IDs as a woman can you not see how it would be a little insulting women that he embraces and identifies with the stereotypes and patriarchal oppression we have had forced on us since birth, and not just that but declares them innate immutable characteristics embedded in his psyche and therefore ours too?

Transwomen don't have much choice though, do they. They didn't make our gendered society, but they do have to live in it, just like the rest of us. But unlike the rest of us they have to work doubly hard to be viewed "as a woman would" in that society, what with not having the necessary hardware to back it up.

Also, what I understand from transwomen is that it's not the stereotypes they feel are innate, but that most women feel at least some small urge to "signal" themselves as women in society; and the way you signal yourself as part of a group is to personify the necessary stereotypes, or at least some of them.

I imagine at some point "signalling" is/has been rather useful for reproduction and forming social groups.

Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 20:25

So yeah, Stonewall's "trans" is not my (or 99.99999% of people's) trans. I'm going with "bodily sex not in line with their gender identity" - so the common sense understating of the term.

You don't get to make up your own definition to suit your own argument. The definition being used by policy makers is the one concerns are based on, not your outdated one.

Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 20:26

And you wouldn't allow the common sense understanding of "positive discrimination" if you remember.

SarahAr · 18/05/2018 20:31

In the guidelines drawn up by Swim England - influenced by Stonewall - women distressed by a penis in a changing room were to be "educated"

These were pulled from the SwimEngland website and I can't find a copy. If anyone has a link to an archived copy I would appreciate it if they would post it.

Other sites quote the following from the guidance:

“You may need to do some education work with other centre users who may be concerned when sharing a space with a trans person, especially if a trans customer looks to have different physical characteristics to the gender they are identifying with”.

My reading of that is the education work is around a centre user who does not wish to share with a transperson. There is nothing in this quote that says if a transwoman exposes her penis then that is acceptable.

Going back to my OP, changes to the GRA to allow self id have no bearing on which changing rooms transwomen use or whether a predator could access the women's changing rooms. The current legal framework has been in place since 2010.

I don't know any incidents of a sexual predator or transwoman exposing their penis in a female changing room in the UK. I can't say it will never happen, but based on the current evidence it would be a very rare event.

Meanwhile sexual assault is endemic in this country and very little of it is happening in changing rooms.

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 18/05/2018 20:33

Are you kidding us?

Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 20:33

I don't have a copy to hand but I expect others do. And as far as I remember it did suggest unexpected penises were likely. I imagine that's possibly why this guidance was pulled and is being rewritten?

Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 20:34

No one swallows your flannel, Sarah. Maybe find some more gullible people?

ToeToToe · 18/05/2018 20:41

I expect someone's got a copy/screenshot of the Swim England rules somewhere - and there was a thread about it at the time.

The rules have now been taken down from their website now - and are, ahem, "under review" because.....

< drumroll > Grin

..because of the actions of the #ManFriday campaign. (Well done Mumsnetters).

NoSquirrels · 18/05/2018 20:43

My reading of that is the education work is around a centre user who does not wish to share with a transperson. There is nothing in this quote that says if a transwoman exposes her penis then that is acceptable.

It says education is necessary if people are sharing with someone with different physical characteristics to the gender they are identifying with.

I’d think a penis on a woman would fall under that category.

And if they were “just getting changed” then it wouldn’t be indecent exposure.

You’re being disingenuous with your thoughts on this if you can’t accept that a legally self IDed “woman” with a penis doesn’t pose a problem for safety/privacy/dignity of women in “safe” sex/segregated spaces.

Not All Men Are Like That. But we legislate to prevent harm from the ones who are like that.

Tinkletinklelittlebat · 18/05/2018 20:50

Hm. it's interesting that all the counter opinions basically translates as 'no it didn't really mean that, you're being negative' and 'oh but that's only a few people affected that way, probably it's just lovely most of the time' and 'oh everyone does it'. And uber sensitivity to women's 'devastating break ups' but absolutely none to the actual issues those women are talking about, which include the utter lack of support for them and the overwhelming dismissal of their rights and feelings as women.

Cognitive dissonance. It's clanging.

changeypants · 18/05/2018 20:52

Meanwhile sexual assault is endemic in this country and very little of it is happening in changing rooms.

eh? i wrote a post upthread about the effects of trauma that many women experience due to sexual assault. it does not matter where the original sexual assault takes place. what trauma means for the person suffering it, is that the body reacts as if the original event is happening again when that person is triggered. for instance when they are in a vulnerable position near an unknown man. because the overwhelming majority of sexual assaults are carried out by men.

this is just one reason why i and many other women would like to be able to continue to exercise a degree of consent over who we share spaces with when we are vulnerable. it's not all the time, the majority of life continues outside of these spaces (unless you are unlucky enough to be a female prisoner or refuge user) and really i don't get why it is such a big ask.

DN4GeekinDerby · 18/05/2018 21:02

The statutory declaration is already part of the process, they just want to cut out the parts that anyone can legally hold them to and any medical care. There is no ethical or legal way to say someone is or is not living as a man or living as a woman. We no longer arrest people for wearing clothes associated with the other sex, there is no legally mandated way for the sexes to live. Clothes, hobbies, appearance...I mean, we can't say someone is or prove they were not planning to live as a woman for a masculine appearence or a beard because some women have a masculine appearence and don't remove their facial hair, we can't say someone is not living as a man for not having a beard or wearing skirts as some can't grow one at all and some men wear skirts. I am not living as a man in a kilt and a woman in a skirt, 'living as' is not an ethical or legal term - I can no more change my sex by living differently than I can change my nationality or age that way - it's just how the transition process is usually talked about so used for ease because there are other parts of the statutory declaration at the moment we can hold people to. Take those away and legally it's empty and unenforceable which is already a big issue with a lot of legislation that has been brought in to tackle problems.

While sex or gender is usually a nominal statistic in data collection that isn't usually a strong way to research a group, it's still important in collecting crime, health, and other social data for wider discussion and to know where to research. We can discuss how austerity mostly affects women from that data. We can discuss who are the victims of different crimes from that data. We can see where we need more support services and test how well they're working with that data. I can certainly see why we might want to add more information collected or change what we collect but with crime or health there are concerns, just toggling between male and female will obscure the picture. Keeping sex and having additional categories would I think be better for things like health and crime.

Really, I don't see what benefit self-ID will have over what we currently have now. I don't see how this is going to make people safer. Having it on a piece of paper, legal or otherwise, will not change how others treat us. I mean, I have a statutory declaration to change my name, I can't legally force anyone to use it any more than I can legally enforce with anyone to see me as I see myself which is not at all. I don't see how it's going to reduce dysphoria or discrimination, help people get housing or jobs, help people access the medical care needed, or in any other practical way help.

Even if we legally 'demedicalize' it, people will want and need to transition medically, and dysphoric people deserve better than what is going on now with abysmal waiting lists and ever shrinking face to face time and certainly deserve better than the idea that ten minutes with a lawyer they've likely is a solution to any of our problems. I really do not get why self-ID has became viewed as kinda the pinnacle of achieving trans rights. At least with same-sex marriage, the law was opening so that the legal rights and duties in marriage which were difficult if not impossible to get otherwise and most people admitted it's limited reach - that it was unlikely to make anyone treat us better or save lives from abuse, legal self-ID does...what exactly for us, what practical benefit will it achieve? I can't see it doing anything and especially not anything that our current system if it was well funded and managed wouldn't do a whole lot better.

I like practical solutions to inequality issues and I don't see that here. Personally, the whole 'demedicalize' from the Tories feels a bit too much like a good excuse to look really progressive while probably cutting services to vulnerable people. And from others, I worry that it encourages the issue we're already seeing in self-medicating on hormones bought online because socially we keep getting the message that transition will make everything better and that there is no reason for concern about people taking these very powerful body altering medicines so why not cut out the medical 'gatekeeper' if it's not required. This puts dysphoric people at risk both from the side effects of the medication but in that it is well known that hormones and surgery without other therapies has a pretty horrible result in our well-being. So yeah, there are problems happening right now and I don't see how legal self-ID fixes any of them.

And most forms don't say 'legal name' either but it's pretty much implied and not doing so on important forms can screw up thing. My citizenship forms do not say legal name or legal sex (it doesn't ask for gender) but not putting my legal name or legal sex in the name and sex section and acting like it not saying legal makes a difference when I and others sign the declaration would likely not be wise.

Rat are you referring to that tiny study in which that they asked women different questions in order to back up their own theory and done for the benefit of further exploring it in trans women. It literally goes from the orignal which has questions like "I have been aroused by picturing myself with breasts" or picturing myself getting my hair done at a hairdresser to the women's version which has questions like "I have been erotically aroused by contemplating myself fully clothed in sexy attire.." or when hoping to meet a sex partner which I think most would agree are incredibly different and the latter ones are rather leading questions. Also the original has a few dozen questions while women's one had nine. That doesn't show 93% of women are autogynephillia, it proved poor ideological-driven research still gets published. It's one thing to question AGP or the way others use it but I think you're better than using such poor research to throw the vast majority of women under the bus. If, using the exact same standard for males not the women's version, almost all females had AGP, we would never get anything done, we would be too aroused all the time.

spontaneousgiventime · 18/05/2018 21:02

I downloaded the Swim England guidelines. I can't post them though. I'm getting Swim England Guide to Engaging Trans People in Swimming.pdf is not a file type that is allowed for Photo 1 Help.

merrymouse · 18/05/2018 21:16

If we're speaking about society at present, I think it's a self-evident fact that the lives lived of men and women are fairly distinguishable on a number of counts, due in no small parts to gender stereotypes and the patriarchy

Generally they aren’t distinguishable except in ways that can’t be replicated.

You can’t identify as somebody who suffers sex discrimination any more than you can identify as suffering discrimination for being trans.

You can’t identify as having periods or having blocked Fallopian tubes.

I agree that the requirement to ‘live as a man or woman’ doesn’t make sense, but then all you are left with is the fact that identifying as the opposite sex doesn’t make you the opposite sex.

On the other hand it is possible to respect somebody’s preferences, appearance and behaviours as a completely valid expression of their own identity.

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 18/05/2018 21:35

There is nothing in this quote that says if a transwoman exposes her penis then that is acceptable

Bless

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 18/05/2018 21:37

Meanwhile sexual assault is endemic in this country and very little of it is happening in changing rooms

Indeed. It's about time we bloody well corrected that anomalous state of affairs Hmm

Really. You are sounding more and more goady

Datun · 18/05/2018 21:43

Really. You are sounding more and more goady

Keep it coming IMO. It's consistently effective.