Legal self-id - what are the problems?

[SarahAr]

Legal self-id - what are the problems?

Assuming that the government goes ahead with legal self-id in-line with its announcement that it only intends to change the Gender Recognition Act to simplify the process and demedicalise it, but it does not intend to change the Equality Act.

And also assuming the legislation is no more permissive than the legislation in Ireland, which requires a statutory declaration stating that the individual intends to live as a women for the rest of her life. This is a safe assumption given the far right government in power today.

What are the problems with legal self-id? More specifically how does it help predators to prey on women and how does it impact women's rights?

This is not intended as a goady post - I genuinely cannot see the problems.

The thing is, someone got a load of women to answer this little questionnaire too and guess what? Turns out like 98% of women have AGP too.

Yeah, but like they're actual women, not males with a sexual fetish. That "research" is bullshit. You can't be this obtuse, really, can you?

How do you live your life as a man?

I believe it involves being paid more, doing less and being listened to. It sounds quite good, maybe we should all try it?

@merrymouse How do you live your life as a man?

Clothing tends to be pretty coded, so I'd start by wearing men's clothes. Perhaps ask Philip "part-time Pippa" Bunce for tips?

How do you live your life as a man?

However you do it I'm pretty confident it's at direct odds with the requirement to live the rest of your life as a woman, that one would have sworn to do when signing one's self-ID statutory declaration.

There is a considerable body of work on AGP

And it's pretty useful, I'm sure, when considering the fetishes of men with no gender identity issues.

Rather less useful when applied to "men" who believe themselves to be in some way women, for the reasons previously mentioned.

And it's pretty useful, I'm sure, when considering the fetishes of men with no gender identity issues.

When anyone can declare that they have "gender identity issues" can you really think there is no overlap? Stonewall disagrees.

@ratrolypoly Sooooo... it's AGP if you're a kinky cross-dresser, it's AGP if you're a post-OP transsexual, it's AGP if you're a no-OP transwoman... but it's NOT if you have the requisite two X chromosomes?

Correct. See the definition at www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22005209/

However you do it I'm pretty confident it's at direct odds with the requirement to live the rest of your life as a woman, that one would have sworn to do when signing one's self-ID statutory declaration.

Do you believe that the lives of men and women are indeed at direct odds with each other?

Of course it’s not AGP if you’re a woman...🤦🏻‍♀️ That’s ... that’s the whole point...

bd67th yep, that's the theory (disputed by others I might add), and that is why it is entirely useless in this context.

AGP doesn't tell us the difference between men and women; it doesn't tell us the difference between men who think they're men and men who think they're women. It just tells us that this thing exists in loads of people, but we only think that's interesting enough to study in people with xy chromosomes because everyone kind of expects it to be true of people with xx.

And like I said before, I think it's fairly self-evident to say that the dangerous, criminal sorts of AGPers (i.e. the ones in prisons) are in the majority the ones who live as and believe themselves to be men.

Not likely to be applying for their GNC anytime soon then.

Do you believe that the lives of men and women are indeed at direct odds with each other?

I assume we're speaking philosophically here? No. Do you?

If we're speaking about society at present, I think it's a self-evident fact that the lives lived of men and women are fairly distinguishable on a number of counts, due in no small parts to gender stereotypes and the patriarchy.

AGP is the theory of arousal experienced when imagining oneself as a woman. It has been tested by using a really ropey questionnaire asking (I paraphrase), "how sexy do you feel imagining yourself going out for a date all dolled up?"

Give over rat. The trans-widows thread below is all the evidence anyone needs. Quite apart from all the websites devoted to men who have AGP.

A thread incidentally which grows daily, as more and more women find themselves on there for support.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee?msgid=77958129#77958129

The question I answered was why don't transwomen identify as transwomen? A lot of male transsexuals do fully admit that they are transwomen, not women. And, if pushed, male.

Not so much men with AGP.

And no, women do not have AGP.

And like I said before, I think it's fairly self-evident to say that the dangerous, criminal sorts of AGPers (i.e. the ones in prisons) are in the majority the ones who live as and believe themselves to be men.

Stonewall says they are all "transgender". Best have a word.

I'm not indulging the "women have AGP too" self serving nonsensical bullshit any further.

But just leaving this there, if you put a nice dress on, heels and makeup, and are a woman and think about yourself having sex with someone, are you a cross dresser?

Now imagine that a man did that.

The point with AGP is that it can, but doesn't always, progress to full blown dysphoria and then transition. As the Trans Widows thread shows in painful detail. Not all AGP men will develop dysphoria and then transition but the ones that do turn into a very distinctive type of trans person, nothing at all like an old school transsexual. I'm sure ol' Crisp will be along any minute to bang on about quackery as per, but really - AGP is as plain as day to anyone with eyes.

Nggg, I do clench my teeth a little every time someone signposts people to the transwidows thread... Far be it for me to suggest anyone not link it, but it does seem rather invasive of me to trawl people's devastating breakups for a source of outage. I have read it before (before posting on these boards), but I haven't been back.

The question I answered was why don't transwomen identify as transwomen? A lot of male transsexuals do fully admit that they are transwomen, not women. And, if pushed, male.

Yes, I imagine they would rather agree with the pusher when pushed...

That probably has a lot to do with why they aren't keen to wave the trans banner over their whole lives; the desire of others to railroad over their own personal beliefs of who they are and have them admit that they are what other people say they are really.

You know, cos everyone knows this whole sex change thing is a bit silly, right?

Nope, they absolutely aren't happy being called transwomen because ; nothing at all to do with a fundamentally not being accepted.

(Disclaimer: not all transwomen feel the same on this point)

Not so much men with AGP.

It's weird that your would draw this conclusion, because how exactly are you distinguishing between transexuals and those with AGP? They both display AGP; which ones are the transsexuals?

Is it the ones who will answer (when pushed) that they are in fact men?

Nggg, I do clench my teeth a little every time someone signposts people to the transwidows thread..

Why? The raw pain on there as a direct result of AGP bothersome to the theory that AGP isn’t a thing? It’s quite hard to deny the suffering of real women in that thread.

That probably has a lot to do with why they aren't keen to wave the trans banner over their whole lives; the desire of others to railroad over their own personal beliefs of who they are and have them admit that they are what other people say they are really.

But it's not all about what they would prefer, is it? These beliefs have impact on others.

The raw pain on there as a direct result of AGP bothersome to the theory that AGP isn’t a thing?

Full disclosure, I have some small experience.

But no, it's two reasons:

One, that I'm not sure I would want masses of people flocking to the threads I've posted on here when at my lowest ebb and looking for advice. It's one thing knowing it's out there on a public site. It's another altogether seeing it signposted to people who's primary interest is anything other than offering me help and support.

Two, it weirdly conflates AGP and transgender people when, as we've seen, AGP is not something that can be used to distinguish between transpeople and kinky cross-dressers.

Undoubtedly discovering your partner is transgender would be devastating. Equally if you discovered they were gay. But I won't take the suffering of real women who have experienced that to say anything about gay men.

Two, it weirdly conflates AGP and transgender people when, as we've seen, AGP is not something that can be used to distinguish between transpeople and kinky cross-dressers.

Kinky cross dressers are trans people. Stonewall says so. That is the definition used by most policy makers in this country.

How do you live your life as a man?

You don't wear makeup for a start. You have clothes with pockets. You are paid more. You are never going to have to find someone to walk you up the bloody aisle.

So because people lie we shouldn't have any gatekeeping?

If a form does not specify legal gender, then you are free to use which ever definition of gender you like. That is not lying. Personally I have never seen a form that specifies state your legal gender.

Far be it for me to suggest anyone not link it

Yep.

...but it does seem rather invasive of me to trawl people's devastating breakups for a source of outage.

You'd better not do that then.

I have read it before (before posting on these boards), but I haven't been back.

Maybe take a look? As this specific issue has been discussed in last few days.

“If self-declaration of gender becomes law, any trans-identifying male prisoner will be able to obtain a GRC and will automatically become eligible for transfer to a women’s prison.”

Things are a little bit more complicated than that. The estate in which a trans prisoner is held is determined by Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service (HMPPS) guidelines. These already allow someone who is legally female to be held in the male estate.

The guidelines have already been updated twice since 2010. If HMPPS wants to make it easier for transwomen to move to the female estate they could update the guidelines tomorrow.

Given they are happy with the status quo, should GRA reform happen, then I would expect HMPPS to review and update its guidelines to ensure things remain the same.

Equally if you discovered they were gay.

No I don’t think it is the same actually. The gay husband thing happened to a friend of mine. Upsetting (devastating) clean split, got on with lives.
The AGP wives seem to have a common experience of being expected to live with it, encourage it and be used as props in it. Effectively the men expect them to take an active part in the paraphilia which increases their suffering.
I dont think that happens, ever, if a spouse comes out as gay.

So yet another way AGP individuals cause damage - they seem to require outside participants in the paraphilic behaviour. The guy who is now suing the waxing salon for example.