Legal self-id - what are the problems?

[SarahAr]

Legal self-id - what are the problems?

Assuming that the government goes ahead with legal self-id in-line with its announcement that it only intends to change the Gender Recognition Act to simplify the process and demedicalise it, but it does not intend to change the Equality Act.

And also assuming the legislation is no more permissive than the legislation in Ireland, which requires a statutory declaration stating that the individual intends to live as a women for the rest of her life. This is a safe assumption given the far right government in power today.

What are the problems with legal self-id? More specifically how does it help predators to prey on women and how does it impact women's rights?

This is not intended as a goady post - I genuinely cannot see the problems.

We'll just keep banging on about it, Eresh.

Every single time. Again and again.

Swim England actually thought it was acceptable to lay guidelines for the "re-education" of women complaining about an adult naked penis in the female changing rooms.

Ereshkigal

Of course it's being ignored. It doesn't correspond to the right-on "It's all going to be fine!" view. They are here to "educate" us now - why wait for Swim England?

Toetotoe I keep asking and no one will ever answer me.

If women have the right to be upset by a man who identifies as a man whipping his kit off beside her, or being asked to get undressed in the same space as him - because basic standards of privacy and dignity fully enshrined in law - and after all, no politician is running to the electorate going ooh our manifesto is all about removing all sex segregation! They know damn well what response they'd get!

So why is it if that same person says 'I identify as a woman' - and the woman beside him has the precise same objective experience of differently sexed bodies - that's supposed to be perfectly ok?

Where's the logic? How is someone's degree of embarrassment and anxiety supposed to predicate on another person's internal decision about their internal self? If later you found the person lied/abused self ID to be there, is your experience then retrospectively any different?

Or is it purely that you as a woman must base your feelings and your freedom of expression around the needs of any male born people who may enter your space?

So Sarah how do you square that with your feeling that it is a reasonable expectation that trans identified males will not expose their penises in female spaces?

there's enough examples on these threads but apparently it still needs saying.

people who have experienced trauma can react to the thing that triggers their trauma by freezing as much as they might fight (or shout, get help, make a fuss) or flight (leave). Freezing can look very much like acquiescence to the observer.

Trauma is far more widespread than popular thinking (looking at you, piers morgan) would have us believe. it's not just war veterans. Threat of risk or real risk, plus no control over a situation, can equal trauma and possibility of ptsd. This is especially so if the situation is experienced early on in life.

violence and sexual violence against women and girls by men is common.

there are many women out there who would be terrified to find themselves in a vulnerable state (ie undressed, enclosed, away from help) with a male bodied person regardless of how the male presented themselves and regardless of whether their behaviour was threatening. many of these women will exhibit a freeze response, they will not be able to challenge the person who scares them. even if that person starts to exhibit threatening behaviour. perhaps especially if that person starts to exhibit threatening behaviour.

people change the whole pattern of their lives around this stuff. it can affect every single interaction with a person of the opposite sex. i speak from experience. if this does not affect you, well done you. congratulations. however what is it about the voices of women like me that is so easy for you to disregard? can't you see beyond your own experience?

Swim England actually thought it was acceptable to lay guidelines for the "re-education" of women complaining about an adult naked penis in the female changing rooms.

While actually in the same document stating that transmen would need to cover their breasts as potentially offensive. Basically that translates as women must learn to at least not show any distress or concern around penises but expecting men to deal with bare breasts? Obviously totally unacceptable. The misogyny of this is appalling!

Let's face it. We're seriously talking about legislating what feelings women may have in public spaces. There's a point where the legal definition of emotional abuse is going to apply. The law is becoming so incoherent and the cognitive dissonance within it so extreme that a child could see it's ridiculous.

Here's an article you'll appreciate Sarah:

The essential commonality between (some) trans women and cisgender men is, to be frank, a penis. It’s an easy body part to scapegoat, but be careful: Biological determinism rarely works out well for cisgender women.

I’m not alone in identifying the male member as the basic problem. Last June, the Toronto women’s spa Body Blitz told a potential client that trans women wanting to visit must have had gender reassignment surgery. I immediately found this unfair – while also understanding that the sight of a penis in a space reserved for women could be unexpected, even unappealing.

Bothered by the gap between my ideals and my discomfort, I considered the warmth and simple humanity of many trans women I’ve met. I thought not just about their traumas, but also how much they might enjoy the spa’s lovely water circuit, let alone a chance to feel recognized.

I realized I had to get over it: A penis is no big deal. Beyond that, demanding that anyone have surgery to be considered a real woman runs counter to every feminist ideal of informed, empowered choice.

www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-this-international-womens-day-feminists-should-finally-accept/

Yes. Women, be nice, abandon your boundaries and put others first. Won't that be lovely?

No. Not happening. Adult human female thanks, not a doormat. Also not co dependent.

also i'm a right on lefty, i sometimes look like a tryhard cool edgy person i am sure. that stuff really does not necessitate swallowing the TRA agenda!

all the people i know who formerly voted labour did so because they genuinely believed in the "for the many not the few" stuff, they thought labour had the backs of the most vulnerable.

they have now realised labour cares about men most of all.

@erishkigal "Unless the Equality Act exemption was invoked. Which is not a duty for a service provider but an option carrying a significant risk of litigation."

Which is another reason why saunas etc are going mixed, even though that has the practical effect of excluding some women.

But they might enjoy the spa's lovely water circuit! How can you be so mean?

Which is another reason why saunas etc are going mixed, even though that has the practical effect of excluding some women.

YY. But who cares about that, eh?

So much faith that girls and women can call management, tell the police etc. Girls and women have been telling people for years about the shit they put up with, #MeToo might be worth a look Sarah see the reality of women's lives.

We have 2 sexes and one sex continues to treat the other sex like utter shit. Why would you choose now to end sex based protections for the vulnerable sex?

if you can't see sex you can't see sexism.

This will be the practical effect. The path of least resistance is to make everything mixed sex.

TRAs are clear they don't want this: the whole point was to be in specific women only spaces. Women don't want this. Men probably don't want this either, not sure anyone's asked them yet.

Then when the number of women drop hugely from those spaces - with specific vulnerable groups hugely over represented - and the number of sex offences against women and girls has rocketed, we can start campaigning for the right of biologically female people to have safe spaces for those very few situations in which their biology matters. You know, like our great grandmothers did.

Except the criteria for those spaces will be immediately attacked and broadened so they can't exclude biologically male people. And so we go on. Until someone in power has the guts to stand up and say no.

Eresh that article describes transwomen as if they are benign,child like creatures, they are just people. yep, they may have some shit but so have women.

While actually in the same document stating that transmen would need to cover their breasts as potentially offensive. Basically that translates as women must learn to at least not show any distress or concern around penises but expecting men to deal with bare breasts? Obviously totally unacceptable.

Exactly! How anyone cannot see the blatant sexism and the disadvantaging of women/overriding of consent is just beyond me.

That article is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Also this dishonest framing:

told a potential client that trans women wanting to visit must have had gender reassignment surgery

No. They told a potential client that penises weren't allowed in their nude spa. Whether they choose to have surgery just to access this one spa is their business.

Reading below I notice this:

We have closed comments on this story for legal reasons or for abuse.

So clearly not everyone agreed with her!

I don't mean to be flippant, but honestly it's like some people have never shared the world with other human beings before. I can't understand the point blank refusal to believe that we might possibly, in our ingenuity, find a way to make that work.

Could it be the fact that even when laws exist to protect women from harassment and abuse, it’s so difficult to get a case to court?

Might it be that some women want to take physical steps to distance themselves from people who might cause them harm?

To be honest I can pretty much avoid public loos and when I go swimming it’s usually in the sea and I just change under a towel on the beach. But maybe, other people are a little more dependant on public facilities and have different experiences?

Might it be worth listening to them before creating a law that makes it impossible to distinguish on the grounds of sex?

As far as I'm concerned, men as a class have had hundreds of years to address the violent, creepy, harassing behaviour that some of them display towards women. I've had enough now. I know they're not all like that but, as we say time and time again on here, there is no way of telling them apart by looking. By all accounts Ted Bundy was a charming guy. Yes I know individual men whom I would trust with my life but I don't expect other women to trust them on my say so.

So until such a time as men, as a class, sort themselves out as a class, then I don't want them in women's spaces. The end.

I realise there will be some casualties and, on an individual level, I am sorry for that. But this is what happens when the male sex expects women to provide a solution to a problem that isn't of our making.

By all accounts Ted Bundy was a charming guy.

He was, and he leveraged female socialisation against women so he could prey on them.

The current thread about Jordan Peterson has an interesting discussion about how men interact with each other and with women, with quite a few male contributors. They seem to believe their aggressive behaviour is innate, and useful. Which I suppose it may be, under certain circumstances. But it's certainly a good argument for sex segregation where women are vulnerable.

Sarah

How disingenuous you are! Just call the police, call management etc etc

Meanwhile, in the real world of women, women are not believed, are blamed for their own victimisation, are dragged through the courts and re-traumatised

You have no clue, or you give not a shiny shit about women

Here’s another massive problem:

“If self-declaration of gender becomes law, any trans-identifying male prisoner will be able to obtain a GRC and will automatically become eligible for transfer to a women’s prison.”

Is this an issue SarahAR? I think it’s a huge one. I know no one gives a shit about women generally and women prisoners even less so, but they are entitled to safety and dignity during their stay at Her Majesty’s Pleasure.

What’s your opinion on this? In the context of about half of TIM prisoners being sex offenders or Cat A? Just bung them in women’s jails? Showering with women? Bunking with women in locked cells?