Jordan Peterson

[Perimental]

dl-tube.com/watch?v=UFwfJVv9P34#.Wvvtj8Hnqjk.link

Thoughts on this man......

According to Walker, bill c-16 and using trans preferred pronouns was about preventing trans people from getting killed, what?

It's easy to see why he often appears to be very bright and to be arguing wholly from a facts-based and objective position, isn't it?

I struggle to understand JP but to be fair I haven't been inclined to put the time in

I agree that identity politics is giving us less and less space - also I don't know who decides that identity but as someone currently feeling like I'm not accepted as English because I'm not white - a major backward step -
I am thoroughly confused by the whole issue.

I also heard that he said he thinks women are there to have babies though - I can't actually find him saying this but I suppose he's buried it in waffle.

but I was just relieved to hear someone who isn't obsessed with identity politics, when I first came across him.

I saw him this morning on TWS. He speaks like someone who is trying to make himself difficult to understand. That may be a cultural thing - I've come across other North American academics like this. I'm not saying he isn't clever. I'm sure he is, but there's a deep insecurity there IMO.

He said something about how societies that are further along the path to gender equality actually have more people choosing traditional gender roles. Or something like that. I'd be interested to hear more on his evidence for that. Anyone point me in the right direction?

He is anti- porn , thinks porn is bad for men and thinks men ought to stop behaving like children.

These days I've even found myself enjoying Shapiro!! I'll take a reasoned argument I disagree with over a silencing of debate any day of the week.

Pinker says the same about egalitarian countries like the Nordic. The women do end up in more caring roles when choice is free.

Owen Jones writer of Chavs calls working class Gammon doesn't he?

Same, posie. (Well not Shapiro specifically but people willing to have the debate in general).

My very right on friends hate Peterson. I don’t mind him. Agree sometimes, disagree others, but at least I know WHY he thinks what he thinks.

Plus some of those very right-on friends have since denounced me for vilest TERFery, which...definitely says something.

I’m a bit inclined to try his book now...

@CuckooCuckooClock "Anyone point me in the right direction?"

Yes certainly, we've just had this discussion in the "pay gap" thread which is currently on the first page

Start with this article: quillette.com/2017/07/15/time-stop-worrying-first-world-gender-gaps/

Then check out this excellent Norwegian documentary on their Equality Paradox - the gap in STEM/Nursing got bigger despite their best efforts. The whole series is worth a watch as each episode tackles a different aspect of the "nature vs nurture" debate

I'm not well read on this but I don't believe for a second that the choice is truly free. I mean free in the sense of not being influenced by societies expectations anywhere in the world. I'd like to know more. Will investigate.

I was supposed to stay for a more intimate Q&A but my lovely husband didn't want me to be travelling around London alone at night and he was waiting for me... we live in Wiltshire. So I had a quick photo.

Thanks fmsfms

Peterson's position would be that irrespective of how it feels, that doesn't change the truth that it isn't.

PP he does comment a lot of women's subjective experience - and asserts that women are there to give birth and men are there to protect the family as it's the best reproductive strategy.

An example :

if you’re a woman who has trouble with men or you’re a man who has trouble with women, it’s not the women and it’s not the men: it’s you. Because the women are telling you what’s wrong with you, and the men are telling you what’s wrong with you, and if you don’t listen, then it’s you.

I don’t think that Peterson is sexist, but I think the archetypes are sexist because the stories were designed to keep women (and everyone else) in their place.

Well said Teacup - his interpretation is male and maybe it works for men - certainly his message of self sacrifice and grow up are what many men want and need to hear.

However, telling that same story to a women who's been repeated targeted from infanthood by predatory men, that her experience of men is her fault, and hence gross victim -blaming, is not OK.

@TheRealPosieParker

I was at his January talk and assumed last weeks one would be the same subject matter. So I have a ticket for his talk in July with Sam Harris.

I never got to meet him in January as the meet/greet was for people that bought the book with their ticket, I'd already pre-ordered mine on Amazon :(

I would love to hear a discussion between Jordon Peterson and Germaine Greer on feminism and gender. The no debate gang will be there in hoards though!

Cuckoo "He speaks like someone who is trying to make himself difficult to understand"

yes. and there's nothing cultural in that. Every workplace has these people - "why use two words when you can use thirty".

I'm leaving my workplace next week and there is one man I will struggle to say a civilised "bye" to without mentioning it. There's a lot of it about, but quite honestly, the number of hours I have spent trying to decipher him in the last five years...

these types do it on purpose, if you ask for a more succinct point, they will often make a longer one. I think it's about ego - they simply think it makes them more important.

sorry for rant.

I respect Ben Shapiro when he said "when did we start mainstreaming delusion" on a panel re Trans issues - and got threatened twice by Zoe?? an ex Navy seal TIM. But he and JP are pretty ruthless in their "it's all down to you how your life goes" - and this is not radfem reasoning.

Pinker says the same about egalitarian countries like the Nordic. The women do end up in more caring roles when choice is free.

I haven't watched the docos that fms recommended and will. However care is needed re interpretation of data - for example Scandinavia has one of the highest rates of DV still but that is never included in any quality of life/ happiness etc surveys. So if women are still subjugated in the home to a large extent, how are their choices "free". Really this demands a thread in its own right. The radfem position is until the system of subjugation is removed, that at present applies undue influence to women's choices of career etc, then no woman can said to be free or have free choice. So when a young schoolgirl opts to not take STEM subjects because it's a boy subject (in a mixed school) then that's not free choice.

The countries with the highest number of females in STEM in Europe are the old communist bloc where women were allocated men's jobs - they had to obey - turns out it was the best thing for them, their earning capacity, independence and for their kids.

Hmmm I get the opposite ..i think he makes very complex theoretical and psychological themes and ideas quite clear ..I think he has so much academic language and knowledge behind it that he struggles to condense and simplify it ..as a psychotherapist and mental health nurse i think he puts very complex psychological theories across well..especially in the videos from his classes at university .

So I have a ticket for his talk in July with Sam Harris.

Sam is more across VAW and is an advocate as such - he showed JP up when he couldn't respond in one of their early talks. SH is more thoughtful and considered. BUT they never have women on their panel to put a GC/radfem perspective and without that it loses me - they mansplain life without considering 51% of the population and with hardly a mention that there may be a vastly different experience where one doesn't have control of one's life - it's very untoward

He's ecstatic.

yes. and there's nothing cultural in that. Every workplace has these people - "why use two words when you can use thirty".

Its very professorial, however.

Sam Harris.... hmmmmm I can't remember what put me off him, perhaps I should revisit.

I must say there's a real lack of women in these positions of social influence.

@therealposieparker
“And this is my Royal Vizier, Jafar, he’s delighted too...”
“Ecstatic.”
Or weren’t you going for the Disney reference?

Picasso - I've only never known one professor and he reckons if you can't sum up your argument without waffle, you don't have one.

JP probably can....if he actually does it I would be interested to hear it but until then I will have to base my opinion on what I've extracted from the waffle....

What irritates me is that women in these panels are often there to give ‘the feminist perspective’, rather than just having a group of interesting people some of whom happen to be women.
What you often end up with is 5 men and a feminist.
And then they got annoyed when we point out they are sexist because they had a feminist on.