Jordan Peterson

[Perimental]

dl-tube.com/watch?v=UFwfJVv9P34#.Wvvtj8Hnqjk.link

Thoughts on this man......

I've listened to a lot of Peterson. I agree strongly with some of his views, less so others, but one thing you can say about him is he backs up everything he says with reason and logic.

If you are going to go after him or his ideas, then you need something a lot stronger than emotion.

I have noticed that nearly every single person who doesn't like Peterson, attacks him and not his ideas. (just look at the criticism of him on this thread alone).

I recently spoke irl to someone who used the whole 'stupid person smart person' line about Peterson, despite being one of the most obtuse and unintelligent people I have ever met. Says it all really.

Peterson hasn't really said anything that I have immediately thought that he's wrong, but I am assured that's simply because I'm not intelligent enough to know he's wrong. I listened to leftie Steven Pinker the other day who attributed this sort of snobbery to the need to fit in with group think. It's most impressive to criticise Peterson, you see the same sort of thing with anything that becomes huge, even campaigns like the ice-bucket challenge saw "better than you" arses talking about how triggering it was to waste water....

I find this sort of passive "aren't I much more clever than you" behaviour really fucking annoying.

I think he’s very bright and I think his ideas are very interesting but I am not a Jungian, I do not agree with his interpretation of archetypes and I don’t agree with his ideas of innate masculine and feminine, and what constitutes as these things.
I don’t agree that all of his theories are backed by loads of great science, the workings of Jung are not proven to be solid fact and have been counter argued many times.
They are interesting, no doubt about it and I don’t think they are ‘right wing’ but I don’t think it helps women to argue that gender roles and archetypes are innate within humanity and the human physche.

The hypothalamus is absolutely a sex difference, we are supposed to take care of our babies. It's not exclusively for women though and we're social animals, society is also part of our evolution. You get much more out of life as a community and so men not clubbing women into submission works for us all.

I don't know if I agree with Jung either, but when JP speaks about him I trust his interpretation. Hell, Jung is only human too.

I find his views extremely interesting. When he did that Cathy Newman interview, I (lazily) struck him off in my mind as an alt-right guy - and had zero time for him.

Then something I was reading mentioned him being no-platformed at his own university - people screaming, and playing white noise over his speeches. Not letting him speak - shouting slogans while he was making arguments, having discussion. Well, what does that remind me of, thinks I?

So I listened - and found he wasn't some alt-right nut. But someone very concerned with free speech, compelled speech being written into legislation, and the lazy mantras and lack of free thought amongst University students. (A lot of uni students - I sincerely hope not all). He fiercely opposes all kinds of nazism, totalitarianism , stalinism.

I find him intelligent, educated, knowledgeable, calmly argumentative, and well, quite inspirational, actually. I studied psychology at university - so find his talks fascinating.

I continue to listen to his lectures on youtube (there are hundreds) and yes, he sometimes challenges feminist theory - but we should all be challenged sometimes. I don't tend to agree with him on feminism - but he has made me think about a few things more deeply. He is usually quite careful to explain that "he is not a woman, therefore, he can't really say etc etc..." and I don't find him misogynistic - I mean, how different is he from the lefty dude bros, who are calling us cunts all the time?

TTT agree.

I disagree with him when he says "carbs are poison". But I can understand and empathise with his reasons for thinking that way. Both him and his daughter suffer from physical and mental symptoms which are alleviated by a zero carb diet.

The level of discourse/debate today if people attempted to understand and empathise with those who they disagree with

I find him fascinating! He didn't come off well in the R4 debate- it's not his medium I don't think. I admire the way he expects people to be critical and think for themselves rather than telling them to think what he tells them to.

I like him and what he is saying. I think he is very measured and calm in the face of often real provocation.

I think it's important for people to take responsibility for their own lives and try to create order and meaning in their lives.

I’ve read his book and agree with a lot of his ideas. Really liked his lobster essay. His rampant sexism and reliance on fluffy religious metaphors lets the central message down, though, which is unfortunate.

I firmly believe in valuing a good idea for its own sake - not discrediting the whole lot because the author has some duff ideas about women. That, to me, feels like the same no-platforming in different clothing.

The messages that he gives to young men aren't exactly bad either.

Take responsibility, stop blaming others, care for your family, look after yourself etc.

There are plenty of worse ideologies to put into peoples heads.

I like him, having first come across him being railroaded by TRA’s at a university campus. I think he tries to argue using logic and intellectect.

He has a lot of interesting ideas, not only on free speech, TRA’s and feminists but also on raising children, role of mothers and fathers etc.

You have to admire someone who doesn’t rally with one side or the other and tries to speak honestly and logically.

Rosie - I agree on some fronts and not on others.

I've learnt a lot from JP about men and how they think, posture and use the threat of aggression to try to dominate other men - he made an insightful comment that men don't know what to do with women in a hierarchy at work - and I think he's spot on with a lot of blokes.

However and it's a big however - he is not a friend of women. He has quite traditional views on their roles - I note he doesn't defer to women about their experience but mansplains. He took on board some of the criticism and has spoken out about violence against women. Irrespective I wish he would stay away from commenting about women's experience in the world, and learn to listen and defer to our experience - and I haven't seen him do that - and I have listened to him a lot. From the description of the Radio 4 panel, that would seem to echo what I have observed. (Haven't have the opp to listen to it yet).

tl;dr - a great addition to moral leadership for men - but really has no clue on the patriarchy and structural subjugation of women.

I trust his interpretation too, I just don’t agree with said interpretation.
I don’t think the imagery in sleeping beauty is a reflection of our innate human physche, i think it’s a reflection of the values of the society that wrote it and myths, fairytales and religious stories are there to establish values and reinforce roles in a society. That they are there to deliberately inform our unconscious mind rather than then being a map of it.

I don’t think the witch in fairytales represents the shadow of our minds but is a warning of what happens when women don’t conform. Same with eve.

I don’t think that Peterson is sexist, but I think the archetypes are sexist because the stories were designed to keep women (and everyone else) in their place.

He didn't come off well in the R4 debate

No, he definitely didn't. He also made some weird arguments about his followers that didn't make sense.

He says some interesting things. Some of it common sense. But there's often a whiff of snake oil. Listen, sure, but with a decent dose of salt. Same with most "thought leaders" really.

fmsfms

Yes I find the carb thing extremely interesting. Many people have vastly improved their health by stopping eating carbs. I am not familiar with his work but he is now on my list, he is engaging and like Posie and others have said, we don't have to agree with him on everything. In this particular fight, against transgender ideology, he is an ally and an important influential one, we need all the help we can get.

He is far removed from an MRA - although a few of his ideas overlap with theirs. There is a definite whiff of "women are biologically programmed to nurture children" but he is careful to never say that's what they should do.

The difference between him and an MRA is that MRA's hate and blame women's liberation for their own failures, and want to push back against women's freedoms.

Peterson is a 'take responsibility, pull yourself up by your bootstraps" type guy - self care, tidy your room, read books , think, talk, challenge yourself, learn from mistakes, analyse your mistakes etc.

It's a good approach. I'm actually thinking of buying the 12 steps book for my sons.

womanformallyknownaswoman

Irrespective I wish he would stay away from commenting about women's experience in the world, and learn to listen and defer to our experience

I could be wrong here but I have never heard him directly address a woman's subjective experience of the world.

He talks a lot about the objective state of the world. He doesn't make any comment that I have seen on how that world is then experienced by different groups.

For example in the Cathy Newman interview, he described his beliefs about the causes of the gender pay gap, that it was based on personal choice and biology. Now to a woman who finds herself at the end of her career, having earned less than a male counterpart who started at the same time, that can feel like sexism or misogyny. Peterson's position would be that irrespective of how it feels, that doesn't change the truth that it isn't.

dammit...

the word subjective should be in italics, not woman's

I find him interesting, my student son first made me aware of him as he liked his stance on free speech as is dismayed and irritated by no-platforming.
The R4 debate was very interesting. I've read most of Peterson's 12 steps book and bought Louise's book after hearing him talk.
I heard a bit of him and Sophie (WEP sophierunning) on the channel 5 Wright show this morning. An interesting panel but I had loads to do so only watched a bit of it.
He mixes some common sense psychology stuff I agree with with gender stereotyping that I don't. I agreed with his position on after school clubs and activities where he said it's important to only do as many activities as the whole family can cope with in the long term and not exhaust yourself as parents for fear your kids will miss out.
He very much believes child rearing is a woman's job and men are programmed to do the hunting taking control thing.
Interesting though.

Bought Louise's book after hearing HER talk that should have been.

@2rebecca "I heard a bit of him and Sophie (WEP sophierunning) on the channel 5 Wright show this morning. An interesting panel but I had loads to do so only watched a bit of it."

Wait, was JBP on the same panel as Sophie Walker? That can't have gone well for her

I didn't realise that Robert "Patriarchy is the trick that makes women do rubbish jobs" Webb had commented on JBP.

Yeah, he was confusing ‘rubbish’ with ‘low-paid’ and being really offensive into the bargain.

The praise he received for his reflections on masculinity reminded me of how dads who change the odd nappy and put on a load or two of laundry get the “Ooh, isn’t he good!” treatment.

Peterson fills a vacancy created by the left; if some on the left don’t like him, they’d do well to reflect on why he’s so popular across the political spectrum.

twitter.com/5WrightStuff/status/996696450460463104

According to Walker, bill c-16 and using trans preferred pronouns was about preventing trans people from getting killed, what?

@hipsterfun "if some on the left don’t like him, they’d do well to reflect on why he’s so popular across the political spectrum."

Exactly, as I said earlier - the Left should be attempting to understand and empathise with why people voted for Brexit and Trump, not labelling white Brexit voting men "gammon" or doubling down on identity politics