Why did the whole tone on trans issues change here?

[Magpiesarehuge]

Was reading the Dittany thread and made me interested in how trans issues were viewed and discussed quite a few years ago. I did dn advdnced search from 2010 to 2015 and the threads way back were completely differently than today. Nearly every voice totally accepting and supportive of transwomen are women and even “a TW with a penis is a lesbian of course if they are attracted to women”

I’ve totally changed my views in the passed 3 or 4 yrs but just strange to see what seems to be a complete about turn. I wonder if the hugely pro trans posters then- still ferl the same now. It’s a bit more understandable why some claims of mumsnet being infiltrated and taken over are made.

I had my eyes opened by one partic male poster. I had it all arse about. No specifics but yep, I didn't get it and then I did. Cannot believe I was so naive. Ofc NAMALT.

I think a lot of people have changed their views - I know I have, due to a combination of the posters on Mumsnet and things I've experienced in 'real life'. I only started posting on the feminism chat after I became gender critical though - Before then I mainly frequented AIBU (and was predominantly a lurker) and it was threads I saw on there that educated me on this issue.

2 day old account. Also posting about same subject on AIBU.

Curious why the seemingly sudden interest in this subject and mention of claims about MN being taken over etc? That's not my experience. What's the source of those claims btw?

Ooh no Fibberty you lose about 10 radfem points for the namalt.

womanformallyknownaswoman. It's not my recollection either. As far as I'm aware the women on FWR have always known what the definition of women is.

Could you link to some of these threads OP? I'd be interested to see where/ when these things were said.

I'd be interested to read some old trans threads too - I don't remember if I ever posted on the subject of "cis-privilege" years ago when I believed in such a thing...?

The oldest thread I found with me on, I was already onside.

I was reading a thread Cote posted from 2014 the other day, I think you were on it Beyond.

I know that's not that long ago.

Things like the Cotton Cesling is why the tone change. Realising that the female penis would mean lesbians shamed for their revulsion. Canadian midwifery changing all maternal language - chestfeeding, human milk, vaginal chamber - FFS! What women alive doesn't feel a chill down their spine when they hear about that?

MN were looking at defining transphobia. They didn't in the end.

I've just skimmed a thread from 2010. The tone is a little different, and comments like 'sex is a continuum' wasn't challenged much, but the overall discussion was similar.

I'm a newbie and would be interested in some historical threads re trans issues. I made a thread here for other beginners to trans issues which can signpost people to older threads on mumsnet which we have totally missed. It feels like I started watching a series from season 5 onwards....

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3246322-A-Beginners-Guide-to-the-Transgender-Debate-A-Signpost-to-Useful-Mumsnet-Threads

I was on the "other" side in those days. I couldn't understand why intelligent, respected posters like Dittany were so insistent on stating that transwomen are not, and never can be, women. Unnecessary and hurtful; why not just let them "be" women if it matters so much, I thought. I even used the term "cis" on a thread iirc (I thought it would make things clearer in the context of the particular discussion). And then I saw where some people were running with it and... nah. This does not compute. This is not treating people who feel they're in the wrong body with kindness and respect. This is appropriating both womanhood and transwomanhood (is that a word?) for fouler purposes under a mask of enlightenment. It's 1984-style newspeak, is what it is. Dittany & Co were right after all, bless them.

Personally I came here because it was one of the very few places that allowed gender critical thought. I'd first become really aware of the trans thing in 2016, and was interested and warily neutral for a while; then the TRA reaction to the 2017 Women's March ('saying women are female is bigotry!') peaktransed me. I did some reading and found out about things like the cotton ceiling. When I tried to discuss it on the Guardian, where I'd been a regular for many years, they deleted all my posts. I'd been reading GC stuff on Mumsnet for probably 10 months before I joined. I get the impression that this place is a refuge for feminists with GC views, because everywhere else is being closed down.

I'd guess it was a combination of:

• eloquent female posters here sharing information, news stories, patient and detailed analysis
• posters who claim to be trans wearing people out with me-railing and lack of actual argument
• arguments over moderation leading to bans of well liked posters for stating the truth, the Spartacus moment
• more women's groups and meets happening to discuss law changes and the TA opposition to them being so out of proportion and threatening
• growing awareness of how women and girls are affected by trans ideology e.g. Girl Guides, partly thru women talking and partly thru increased pressure from a growing number of TAs getting polices changed so women are actually experiencing this themselves in their everyday lives (so it isn't just 'in theory')

I think this isnt just happening on mumsnet and the backlash was inevitable.

I’ve been around on MN for donkeys and it’s been pretty much the same on this site OP. Seems likely that appalling TRA tactics continuing over time and their attempts at constant debate shut down combined with the prospect of legal self ID advancing and public policy changing ‘in advance’ of this.

That ^ seems highly likely to be a major topic of interest and concern on a discussion site predominantly used by women, parents and trans people who collectively don’t agree with threatening women, encroaching into women’s spaces or seeking to take over their opportunities etc which has been happening and so, which has been discussed on this site.

The number of teenage girls transitioning must have increased awareness bon a parenting site.

This is the oldest one I can see. I'm not in it though :(

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1003649-feminism-and-transsexuel-people

Ha, topical...
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1022975-So-it-would-appear-this-topic-is-the-Millwall-of

Someone asked for links - I’m not sure this thread would ho the same way in today’s mumsnet - haven’t read whole thread do not sure if the tone changes by the end. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1466422-Am-I-being-unreasonable-telling-my-17yr-old-daughter-not-to-date-a-boy-who-was-once-a-girl

The things that got me to shift a gear and go more GC have been the 1984 nature of much of the discourse from trans allies and their raging authoritarian intolerance, misogyny, gas-lighting, and silencing.

Specific highlight have been the eye-popping threats of violence, rape, and murder, the actual violence, the female penis, homophobia (specifically towards lesbians), and the enthusiasm for children to be sterilised and mutilated.

Disrupter thread.

Thread about puberty blockers
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1194962-Children-of-12-to-be-allowed-gender-drugs-to-prepare-for-sex-change

I was on some of those threads,under another name.I've changed sides too though my feeling then was that individuals should be able to live as they want to,which I still believe ....but balancing that with the effect on others.

But seeing the implications of self ID,the reinforcement of gender stereotypes,the impact of transwomen on women's sport,the people who identify as women without altering appearance or behaviour,the misogynistic behaviour of some trans activists..,
And the failure of anyone to explain what "feeling like a woman" means.
Actually @Anniegetyourgun said it all much more eloquently.